Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

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Tatsadasayago
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Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by Tatsadasayago »

Having finished my long restification of the Blair Jeep III a few years ago the first thing I did was to beat feet up to my family property outside of Reno for some wheeling and glamour shots of my baby.
Right away I was reminded that Carter AFB/Edelbrock 1400s don't work very well for wheeling. On the way from Sacramento I went from 350' to over 7600' elevation and maaaan did she get fat up on Donner Summit!

So, having pretty much exhausted my savings account I was looking for a low buck, but sensible solution for these two VERY aggravating issues.

I knew that one can make a Holley 4150/4160 work exceptionally well as an extreme wheeling/crawling carb with modifications. I'd driven my brother Ray's very bada$$ 401 CJ-5 on the Rubicon and knew his 750 Double pumper worked very well even when all I could see up front was blue sky. I asked him to show me what he did to that carb to make it work so well. His solution was simple: He added two pieces of clear vinyl fuel tubing to threaded nipples screwed into the bowl vents and tied together with a tee, then a 2" or so vertical piece of tubing from the tee zip-tied to the air cleaner stud that ended just short of the air cleaner lid.
That's it, nothing fancy, no razoo off-road needle and seats etc. His solution performed the same function as the Holley Truck Avenger, and perhaps even better since both bowl vents had an effective height of 4-5" above the fuel level compared tot he TA's 2" max.

OK, so I had that part figured out. A Truck Avenger carb was running about 425 I recall so that was out. I ended up buying a Holley 4160 600CFM carb with non-adjustable floats from Summitracing for 268.00. I don't need a big carb because my engine develops torque at low-ish RPMs and I just don't like to rev past about 3500 RPM unless something is on fire, Zombies are chasing me or somebody's life is in danger. So yeah, a 600 would suit my needs and then some.
I stress tested the stock Holley in the spring by getting myself burind in deep snow drifts on a fairly steep, off-camber road. I had the old girl bucking and bouncing fairly good and the carb didn't flood, sag or cause any problems compared to my Edelbrock that would have flooded the moment I even looked at that hill.
OK, so the next thing to tackle was the mixture issue. I had previously used the Percy's Adjust-a-Jet kit on my drag car and knew they worked great for quick jetting changes without spilled fuel and torn bowl gaskets...but I wanted something more.
Image
I wanted to be able to adjust the air/fuel mixture from the driver's seat. I am a bit of a Control Freak thus the name of my project :P

I knew that running too lean or rich for even a short amount of time can wreak havoc on an engine I knew I would need some way of monitoring my Air/Fuel ratio while driving. I thought about adding two Pyrometers, one for each headpipe, but that idea got shelved. I ended up going with an Edelbrock AFR meter from Summit for 100.00 but after seeing just how cheesy it was and that it was narrow-band I bit the bullet and went with the Innovate Motorsports G3 AFR gauge kit.
Image
I installed it with the stock carb and after some very annoying ground issues, got it working. I placed the controller box on the rear slope of the pass side inner fenderwell where it was protected from dirt, mud and water.

Next up was the Adjust-a-jet plate install.
Image
The kit comes with the plate, gaskets, longer bowl screws and a modified accelerator pump arm. I had to purchase the extended fuel transfer tube separately which was annoying, but it makes sense because the kit will fit a variety of Holly 41XX series carbs and not all use the tube.
In the photo above you can see the mixture adjustment screw set for approximately a 64 jet size which is a good baseline for 350' sea level.
I adjusted the mixture while driving, then stopping, getting out, removing the air cleaner and twisting the screw...then repeating. Yes, this was much faster and cleaner than popping a bowl off or having to hang metering rods etc but still took too long and put me in a foul mood.
Once the jetting was set, I adjusted the idle mixtures for best vacuum, RPM and a 14.7:1 ratio.

While I was working on the plate install my mind was pondering how I would control the mixture from the cab just like I did in aircraft.
I had a Holley 3BBL carb off a B-17 radial engine and a Stromberg off of something else in storage so I grabbed them and found their mixture control setups.

Both used a simple needle and port just like the Percy's plate that connected to a spring loaded and dampened lever/bellcrank with a 4:1 ratio with a cable connection at the long end.
Now I had an idea of how I would rig up a control linkage.
About the same time, I remembered that I'd worked on Holleys that had a lever actuated bowl vent!
I ran outside to the Ramcharger and promptly removed the vent lever and retainer plate.
Image
I located the retainer plate on the jet plate and drilled holes for the sheetmetal screws.
Image
I bent up some 1/8th" brass rod for the linkage, removed the threads from the needle with a lathe and soldered a brass washer to the top.
With that working, I went to NAPA and bought a kinda-expensive vernier control cable.
Image
I removed the cigar lighter assembly from the dash and mounted the cable head in it's place. No drilling required! :D
I fed the cable through the firewall above the pedal bracket and made a loop around the engine compartment until the end was alongside the carb on the passenger side.
Image
I robbed the choke cable bracket off the Edelbrock and welded it to a tab for mounting on the passenger rear carb mounting stud. The control cable was now in place with a nice clear shot forward just above the intake runners. I wanted at least a 4:1 ration for precise control but found I'd made the vertical rod a bit too long. I left it that way because I knew this was just a proof of concept and not even a prototype.
I robbed the choke cable end and soldered it to the end of the vertical rod and connected the cable.
Image
In the photo above you can see where I had to go back and add a 1/4" long piece of .250" solid brass rod to the mixture needle to get the washer loop at the same level as the control rod. I wanted the two to be in the same plane during normal operation and without this, the alignment was all messed up.

I buttoned everything up and began a series of test drives. I immediately learned that there was way too much slack or baklash between my lean and rich adjustments leading to too rich or too lean woes but the concept worked. I topped off in Sacramento and drove to Fresno and back on Highway 99 which is just about flat the whole way. I watched my vacuum gauge and never applied enough throttle to drop to more than 20" manifold vacuum while maintaining 55MPH when at all possible due to traffic. My previous highway runs netted 11-13 MPG with 4:27 gears and 33x12.50 AT tires. measuring a true 32" height. This run just a week later netted 19MPG for the trip! I did my best not to worry the AFR too much but managed to keep it at the 14.7:1 ration for most of the trip.
Image

Life intruded and it was almost 2 years before I could get back to this project. In the meantime I had been playing with a new design for the system that would eliminate the backlash issues and provide better control. What I was after was essentially a full jet size with every full turn of the vernier cable knob. After some calculations and measurements I found the right length of vertical rod and lifting arm to cable movement. It ended up being very close to my original 4:1 ratio.

I went into 3DsMax and laid out a crude new design.
My criteria were that it should be made from off the shelf materials available at Ace Hardware, be workable enough to be built with basic-intermediate tools and be as simple as possible for cost and reliability.
After many months of giving this design 30 minutes at a time I came up with the basic design as shown below.
Image
I thought placing a piece of drilled flat stock between the choke lever assembly and the carb body would be simple and strong enough to support the control rod and not require much effort to build. Well, that worked, but I was getting some resistance from the mixture needle as I raised and lowered it due to the slight amount of threads left over from the lathe job. As the needle moved those thread remnants were hanging up on the viton seals down inside the jet plate and there was enough resistance to cause my mounting plates to twist and raise off the carb bowl...bringing me back to a backlash problem that made accurate mixture adjustments darn near impossible.
Then about the same time I started experiencing MEGA flooding issues that would begin at random....so rich that I couldn't keep the engine running in gear and choking out from the raw fuel and smoke.
My project stopped as quickly as my Jeep did trying to get it backed into the shed.

To be continued...
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
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berettajeep
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by berettajeep »

Very interesting read. :-bd
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by Tatsadasayago »

Almost two years passed before I was able to drag the old jeep out of the shed and play with it again.

It was still flooding badly so I removed the bowls looking for the cause. It didn't take long to find it.
The Percy's jet plate I had was made from purple plastic unlike the one shown below.
Image
On the fuel plate shown, you can see the rectangular-shaped area that shows the brass mixture needle and the jet-passages. There is a cover over that on both aluminum and plastic versions and for some reason the cover on mine had come loose creating a condition similar to running with no jets screwed into the plate. The plastic plate version has a triangular cover that is glued on and I either got one with bad glue or something in the fuel here (MTBE perhaps?) ate the adhesive. A call to percy's not only didn't provide any answers nor a replacement since it had been almost 4 years since I purchased it.

I ordered another plate kit from summit and put it in. The jeep ran great again and I was motivated to continue with the project.

After having so much time to ponder the design I came up with a third version which would solve almost all the problems I had previously encountered.

Image
My design revisions had taken me away from the flat stock mounted to the choke assembly to a simple plate that mounted on the fuel bowl using the two upper screws as shown above.
I had a stroke of good luck after I'd replaced the old jet plate that made quite a difference. I was showing the old plate to my dad and was demonstrating how the mixture needle worked and when I tried to move it up and down I found it was stuck. I gave it a tug and not only did the needle pop out, but it took the threaded brass collar with it. DING! I wouldn't have to turn the threads off the mixture needle! This was good because that was the one change there was never going back from should I ever decide to remove the remote adjustment setup but still want to use the jet plate.

Long story a little bit shorter:
I obtained a 2BBL Holley from Mark at J&W for a production mockup and proceeded to manufacture the first prototype ControlFreak® AFR kit.
Image
After installation and testing there were three issues that came up.
You'll notice the aluminum spacer on the carb. I had to put it on there so the stock air cleaner base would clear the horizontal rod and vertical lever at the left.
I had the spacer on hand and used it instead of changing the existing setup. The 4th and hopefully final version uses a shorter horizontal rod that brings the vertical lever much closer to the carb and allows the use of the stock AMC air cleaner without the spacer. I had decided to make this version for driver's side hung float and inlet versions of the 4160 and there are the center hung, angled bowl versions out there that would need their own particular design should I ever go into production. The third issue was the nylon washers used to seal the bowl screws. As you can see in the photo, they squished under the added load of the mounting plate. The next design employs copper washers that still seal but don't flatten.

Image
I refined the design for easier fabrication and durability by using heavier brass material and silver instead of employing lead solder.
The vertical lever was shortened 5/8" of an inch so the control cable is level.
I've driven just over 350 miles so far during testing in temperatures ranging from the mid 40s to 113 degrees this summer and so far have had no problems with the system.
I had no need to hook the choke up because I don't need it! On a cold startup, I just pull the control knob out until I feel the cable stop (Approximating a 120 jet size), pump 2-3 times on the throttle and start the engine. If I want to start moving immediately, I leave the mixture at full rich and occasionally lean out a full turn at a time as the engine warms up. One at full operating temp a half turn on the knob once or twice while watching the AFR gauge is about all that's needed for clean running and full power performance. Idle mixture is unaffected and enrichment levels under load via the power valve is unchanged with this setup and I am very pleased.

The next test before I go into small scale production is an extended road test involving towing and extreme altitude changes. The first will be a run up the property near Reno and back and the other a trip down south to Sonora for the meet n greet in October. If that works out then it will be time for production.

I did my homework and decided to apply for a patent on my part of the kit as well as the process overall. It was costly to have the attorney's do their thing but this will protect my design from ripoffs to a degree.

Anyway, that's about it for now until mid October.

See you then!

Jim
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
A collection of parts flying in close formation

racerx12003r1
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by racerx12003r1 »

Thats a great post. Your concept seems to be very sound. You just may have the next million dollar idea there. Do you think you could maybe use parts for radio controlled model airplanes to tighten up some of the slack you was talking about? Just a thought.
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by carnuck »

Control Freak is a suspension company. Any relation? https://www.facebook.com/FreakRide
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by bigun »

I have been wondering how the "Percy's" setup would work on the street. If I understand this what you have done is replace the primary bowl jet screw with one that is smooth so that you can move it up and down from the cab? What keeps fuel from leaking out? Any idea when you'll go into production, is the AFR guage required to make it work correctly?

Bravo sir for thinking out of the box, probably a bit to complicated for the average driver though. Thumbs up for getting it patented before publishing your results :-bd :-bd
Last edited by bigun on Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by csuengr »

If you want a carb to go offroading with, get a 2150. Puts a Truck Avenger to shame. Then I just laugh at people who build 400 hp engines when they only need 20 hp to wheel.
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by bigun »

carnuck wrote:Control Freak is a suspension company. Any relation? https://www.facebook.com/FreakRide
Looks like they are out of FL. he is Ca.. So I would say no.

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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by bigun »

csuengr wrote:If you want a carb to go offroading with, get a 2150. Puts a Truck Avenger to shame. Then I just laugh at people who build 400 hp engines when they only need 20 hp to wheel.
Di9d you even read what his post was about before you typed your drivel? He is working his rig run better on the hyway! :roll:
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by Stuka »

Very interesting setup. Being able to adjust it without tearing it apart is great, especially if you are changing altitudes.
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by csuengr »

bigun wrote:
csuengr wrote:If you want a carb to go offroading with, get a 2150. Puts a Truck Avenger to shame. Then I just laugh at people who build 400 hp engines when they only need 20 hp to wheel.
Di9d you even read what his post was about before you typed your drivel? He is working his rig run better on the hyway! :roll:
Yes I did. He complained about Edelbrocks being crappy offroad carbs (which they are), but they are great cruising carbs. I have never had a problem running on the highways in the mountains here with an Edelbrock carb. Yeh, they get rich at higher elevations, but not enough to worry about.

He built a mixture adjustment like piston powered aircraft have.
1977 Cherokee S, Ford 5.0, 5 speed, BW 1356, 33 x 10.50 BFG's. No longer my DD.
2007 Mercury Milan, 2.3L, 5-speed, now my DD. 29 mpg average.
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by haminawag »

Two things Jim: I'm a little unclear when you described this;

"I had a stroke of good luck after I'd replaced the old jet plate that made quite a difference. I was showing the old plate to my dad and was demonstrating how the mixture needle worked and when I tried to move it up and down I found it was stuck. I gave it a tug and not only did the needle pop out, but it took the threaded brass collar with it. DING! I wouldn't have to turn the threads off the mixture needle! This was good because that was the one change there was never going back from should I ever decide to remove the remote adjustment setup but still want to use the jet plate."

If the threaded collar came out along with the needle how were you able to create the necessary seal between the jet plate and the needle, seems to me it'd be a sloppy fit and allow the needle way too much room to move around, which would of course defeat the purpose of the entire project, what am I missing here?

The other thing is that I think your idea of using a vernier cable is genius. Have you thought of applying this same idea to the Thermo-Quad carburetor? Think of the possibilities, besides the thermo-resin fuel bowl, a single center-hung metering rod post, end mounted floats. I'm thinking about it now because the Carter design is basically what you've come up with instead of metering rods, a manually adjustable jet, so how about a manually adjustable jet made from the existing metering rods, hmmmmmmmm. I wonderrrrrrr. Good post BTW, I like the way you think.
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by Tatsadasayago »

racerx12003r1 wrote:Thats a great post. Your concept seems to be very sound. You just may have the next million dollar idea there. Do you think you could maybe use parts for radio controlled model airplanes to tighten up some of the slack you was talking about? Just a thought.
Hello Daniel,
I looked at possibly using an R/C servo instead of cable and linkage but the underhood temp extremes made me think it wouldn't last too long.
I look into vernier drive motors, stepper motors (Like the IAC on GM TBI), bi-axial radial steppers etc. and in the end settled for good old fashioned cable and linkage. The latest design has about .010" backlash between the knob and mixture needle.

By drilling the proper holes in the linkage and employing the S-Link from a ThermoQuad, I was able to eliminate all the backlash. I admit i did look at servo actuator rods with those nice mini-Heim joints though. :)
Thanks for reading!

Jim
Last edited by Tatsadasayago on Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by Tatsadasayago »

carnuck wrote:Control Freak is a suspension company. Any relation? https://www.facebook.com/FreakRide
Nope, thus ControlFreak rather than Control Freak.

I didn't trademark the name and will probably use another anyway should I go into production.

Jim
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by Tatsadasayago »

bigun wrote:I have been wondering how the "Percy's" setup would work on the street. If I understand this what you have done is replace the primary bowl jet screw with one that is smooth so that you can move it up and down from the cab? What keeps fuel from leaking out? Any idea when you'll go into production, is the AFR guage required to make it work correctly?

Bravo sir for thinking out of the box, probably a bit to complicated for the average driver though. Thumbs up for getting it patented before publishing your results :-bd :-bd
On the street and at the strip, the Percy's plate is amazing solid in my experience. I think the only aspect in which it is lacking is balanced jetting so no staggering is possible without adding a restrictor jet on one side etc.

My first version utilized the mixture needle with the threads turned down to allow for movement. The latter version needle threads can be left intact since the threaded insert is easily removed from the plate. Inside the plate are two viton seals, one about .125" apart that stabilize the needle and seal things.
One addition I made to my latest design is a rubber washer with a .130" hole that slides over the needle shaft and prevents dirt and water from getting into the needle cavity. The final design will likely use a short collet similar to the one I removed that will seal things up.

I have no idea when or even if I'll go into any kind of production since I doubt too many people would want something like this. I may do like some here and do small batch runs when needed.
Yeah, it was an expensive proposition going for a patent and at this point it's in the application stage and I don't expect to be granted one for 5 years or maybe even more. PAF simply means I can prove I was the first.

Thanks for reading!

Jim
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by Tatsadasayago »

csuengr wrote:If you want a carb to go offroading with, get a 2150. Puts a Truck Avenger to shame. Then I just laugh at people who build 400 hp engines when they only need 20 hp to wheel.
I agree that the 2150 is a superb wheeling carb and swear by them. I chose the Holley 4160 because I knew of the Percy's jet plate system and didn't have to spend time trying to figure out how to achieve the results I was after with one. 2150s use jets and metering rods and I knew better than to try.
As I said in my post, I've seen how well a Holley can do offroad and having crawled up near vertical rock faces with two different Holley equipped CJs I knew I would never place my beloved Cherokee in a situation and attitude as that so I was convinced.
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by Tatsadasayago »

haminawag wrote:Two things Jim: I'm a little unclear when you described this;

If the threaded collar came out along with the needle how were you able to create the necessary seal between the jet plate and the needle, seems to me it'd be a sloppy fit and allow the needle way too much room to move around, which would of course defeat the purpose of the entire project, what am I missing here?

The other thing is that I think your idea of using a vernier cable is genius. Have you thought of applying this same idea to the Thermo-Quad carburetor? Think of the possibilities, besides the thermo-resin fuel bowl, a single center-hung metering rod post, end mounted floats. I'm thinking about it now because the Carter design is basically what you've come up with instead of metering rods, a manually adjustable jet, so how about a manually adjustable jet made from the existing metering rods, hmmmmmmmm. I wonderrrrrrr. Good post BTW, I like the way you think.
I should have added that there are two viton seals in the mixture needle well that keep it stable and sealed. There is probably an inch pound or two of resistance as the needle is moved and I can only move the needle by pushing in the XY axis with a good amount of thumb pressure.
I explained things in more detail in another response if I didn't make enough sense.

Yeah, I love my ThermoBogs! Like the AFB I looked at how to remotely control the AFR by somehow controlling the height of a set of rods....but the complexity of a two or three stage step made my head hurt.
I have a few 625 TQ's with the altitude compensator but never got past how I would fool the aneroid into thinking the atmospheric pressure was different...
I think for a regular Joe who isn't into tinkering, the compensator route might be the way to go. I recall just about all the major carb models had some sort of device for those Colorado rigs that see 7-10k foot elevation changes over a day trip.

Thanks for reading!

Jim
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by Tatsadasayago »

Somebody asked if an AFR meter was required...but I can't find who asked so:

I short, no, not really essential or required. I shelled out the big bux because A) I didn't want to hurt my engine by running too lean or too rich, but also I needed a very accurate wideband AFR installed for testing purposes.
Many times I've adjusted the mix for a certain situation, such as going up Hwy50 near Pollock Pines and thought the AFR was close, then looked at the gauge and saw I was around 14.7:1 but the power valve was opened under the load. I was actually running too lean (18:1 or so) once the hill leveled off and I backed out of the throttle to maintain 55 MPH.

My engine is just about stock and it's been very illuminating to see how far to each side of that 14.7:1 stoichiometric ratio one can deviate before the engine starts acting stupid.
Another thing I discovered is that all my life I assumed that when you chopped the throttle that the combustion chambers would immediately go into full leanout. Not so, at least in this case.
The moment I close the throttle abruptly at say 2000 RPM while coasting down a long hill, the AFR immediately goes to around 8:1 for about 5 seconds, then climbs up to 13-14 as the idle circuit begins to have an effect. So while downrevving from the top of a steep pass, your AFR is typically pretty good despite all the back-rapping and cackling we hear.
The guys with EFI who've done some logging might be able to share what they have seen. The G3 I have can be used to send data to a laptop etc but I haven't used it since install.

Anyway, I hope I've answered everyones questions.

Time to go play Texas Hold-Em with the old folks!

Jim
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

Post by racerx12003r1 »

Tat, I think you have a great idea. Carburetors are becoming a lost art and a thing of the past. I personally am working on an old Quadra-jet for my old iron right now. If I had any hair, I would probably be pulling it out right now. I have had it apart so many times here lately, I'm gonna wear out the threads. LOL :banghead:
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Re: Control Freak®: An alternative to EFI

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racerx12003r1 wrote:Tat, I think you have a great idea. Carburetors are becoming a lost art and a thing of the past. I personally am working on an old Quadra-jet for my old iron right now. If I had any hair, I would probably be pulling it out right now. I have had it apart so many times here lately, I'm gonna wear out the threads. LOL :banghead:
Hehe, I feel your pain Brother!
My dad forced me to learn Quadra-Bogs and I'm glad he did. They are a great carb but maaan when they go sideways on you they do it bigtime.

From my experience the common problems are flooding (Due to leaking well plugs), leanout stumbling at tip-in (Worn throttle shaft causing a vacuum leak) and sticking mixture rods. I can't claim to be a Q-Jet guru by any means, but if you PM me with the details, or start a thread about your issues, we may be able to help you out.

Jim
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