Need opinions on intake and cam and headers

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Fast Eddie
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Location: South Lyon, MI

Re: Need opinions on intake and cam and headers

Post by Fast Eddie »

Stuka and 440,
I can see both your points to this debate. But I believe the lower compression in this day of piss poor gas is more a sign of our times than what we can build into a engine. Yes, the higher compression will equal more power, but getting the high octane gas to use in it is getting tougher and more $$$ by the day!!! Guess I'm just happy that my PO made the right choices and spent the $$ on the 360 I have so I don't have to!! I just get to enjoy my Jeep and drive it!!!
I still think headers and a nice exhaust system are a step in the right direction, PLUS it just sounds SO GOOD!!!

Ed
1979 J20, 360 w/NV4500/D300 Twin Stick/3.73 SOLD
1978 Cherokee Chief W/T Levi interior, 360 Q/T. SCRAPPED
1970 Gladiator J4800 Camper Special, Buick 350, 4spd. SOLD
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: Need opinions on intake and cam and headers

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

440sixpack wrote:I'm not attacking anyone. I'm just not back slapping and shining him on. it sounds like he made up his mind up before he asked so why ask for " opinions " if a high five is all that's desired. it seems there needs to be a tech forum and a support group forum.

There was never any reason to waste the money on a 4V in the first place because it would do no good on a smogger . so the intake would obviously be useless. headers on a street driven smogger are useless. changing the cam in a worn smogger isn't going to hurt anything but gains will be minimal . and without a new valve spring set even more minimal. so what did I get wrong ?

The OP asked for opinions and he got something he didn't want to hear. the truth. do what you're going to do it's not my problem.

actually.... let me stop you right there.

again,
if you are trying to be helpful then I appreciate your efforts even though I believe the attitude is misplaced. I don't want to bore the engine. I understand that boring the engine and working on compression will give me the best performance. I again asked about specific mods... so you are correct, what you are telling me isn't what I wanted to hear because it didn't pertain to the original posting.

I came on here because I already had the engine. I didn't ask you what engine I should use. I asked you what mods I should add. I didn't ask you should I bore my engine... I didn't ask you about compression. In fact what you provided isn't going to help me what so ever.

If the subject was " give your opinion on whether to break down this engine or add mods to it" then I could completely understand your attitude. but instead I asked your opinion about specific mods. You gave your opinion.... fine... but your opinion didn't matter because it didn't have a single thing to do with what I was asking.

that's what you got wrong.
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: Need opinions on intake and cam and headers

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

Fast Eddie wrote:Stuka and 440,
I can see both your points to this debate. But I believe the lower compression in this day of piss poor gas is more a sign of our times than what we can build into a engine. Yes, the higher compression will equal more power, but getting the high octane gas to use in it is getting tougher and more $$$ by the day!!! Guess I'm just happy that my PO made the right choices and spent the $$ on the 360 I have so I don't have to!! I just get to enjoy my Jeep and drive it!!!
I still think headers and a nice exhaust system are a step in the right direction, PLUS it just sounds SO GOOD!!!

Ed

I 100% agree and those will definitely be added on. I want to buy a good set and that's going to run around 1200 for the full system. I simply don't have it now sadly.
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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fulsizjeep
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Re: Need opinions on intake and cam and headers

Post by fulsizjeep »

I run Performers on two 401s and SP2P on another. Two have Holley TA 670 and one has an Edelbrock 600. They are each a damn site better for performance than the stock 2 bbl setup. I still like the Motorcraft 2150 best for wheeling though.

I run a little hotter cam in two previously used 401s that gave better performance. Cams are Comp Cams 260H and Lunati Voodoo 10100702.

I run Hedman headers on two 401s since 2003. Leaks have not been an issue with Remflex gaskets. One currently has Felpro and doesn't leak. I understand some have issues with leaks on AMC headers. Not my problem.

I smell my popcorn burning. Enjoy the opinion show.
Flint Boardman
88 GW, 401/727/208, 5" lift, D44s/4.10s/locked up, 35s
https://jubileejeeps.org/quadratrac
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babywag
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Re: Need opinions on intake and cam and headers

Post by babywag »

All your mods are worth it IMHO. In stock tune, yes a 2bbl smogger is a joke.
Simply adding a bigger 2bbl holley is a noticeable mod.
All of ‘em together is worthwhile. The stock cam is a joke, the stock retarded timing is a joke. The stock y-pipe is uber restrictive. No it won’t be a racecar, but it’ll be way better that the stock tune.

EFI is a noticeable improvement even on stocker. If you’re on a budget shop for used parts. I picked up a pair of thorley’s and an intake off CL for dirt cheap. There was a pair for $300 last week in SoCal. I was tempted to buy ‘em for my ‘90.
My TBI is all JY used GM stuff w/ some new parts, probably ~$500 total.
There is an mag article where they dyno’d a Howell setup, ~20hp gain vs. stock 2bbl.
http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/engin ... to-14.html
Now I would never shell out the $ they charge, but others have/will. Now with all the modern stuff available. If emissions testing allows, go with a sniper/fitech/etc.
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag)
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: Need opinions on intake and cam and headers

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

now we're talking!!!!
ceramic headers are definitely wanted/needed and when I do them i'll also do a full exhaust including the Y pipe... I know that'll give me my best boost for the money spent.

I'm search tempest craigslist and throw a few facebook posts on some group sites to see if anyone has something laying around I can make a deal on... I don't know why I hadn't thought of that haha.
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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babywag
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Re: Need opinions on intake and cam and headers

Post by babywag »

Some folks have run these...
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hed- ... wide-track

I've seen used ones pop up occasionally as well, IIRC someone on here was selling a pair a while back.

Used intakes are pretty easy to find, just be sure to get pics, and verify no stripped holes etc.
I've bought several over the years for way less than a new one.
Post a wanted thread?? Maybe someone has some stuff laying around.

I believe someone on here recently sold a TBI setup as well?
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag)
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: Need opinions on intake and cam and headers

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

babywag wrote:Some folks have run these...
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hed- ... wide-track

I've seen used ones pop up occasionally as well, IIRC someone on here was selling a pair a while back.

Used intakes are pretty easy to find, just be sure to get pics, and verify no stripped holes etc.
I've bought several over the years for way less than a new one.
Post a wanted thread?? Maybe someone has some stuff laying around.

I believe someone on here recently sold a TBI setup as well?
perfect! those headers are not badly priced... I think I found a pair of ceramic coated Doug Thorley headers and an intake for $250 for all of it... still waiting on pics.

Those headers say they are for a 80 Cherokee, will they still work on a 1988 wagoner?
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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babywag
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Re: Need opinions on intake and cam and headers

Post by babywag »

Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:
Those headers say they are for a 80 Cherokee, will they still work on a 1988 wagoner?
Yes, all ‘80-‘91 FSJ actually. All use same manifolds & y-pipe.
Be careful buying used Thorley’s. Early ones are different vs. late, and you need their y-pipe as well.
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag)
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: Need opinions on intake and cam and headers

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

ok we are getting to the nitty gritty in the build now...

I have decided on the comp cam 260H as the summit K8600 will require me to upgrade the stall torque converter and I'd rather not need to worry about that.

I believe the 260H will give me the boost I'm looking for without making the daily driver uncomfortable. i'll be replacing the valve springs to match as well as pull the heads and machine them down.

I'm going to throw on those headman headers you recommended... I know they are cheap and not ceramic... I'll use and abuse them for a few years and then splurge for the upgrade. I can get the gasket Hedman 27850 to go with... thoughts on this gasket?

of course I'm going to replace the intake with the edelbrock 2131.
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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Stuka
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Re: Need opinions on intake and cam and headers

Post by Stuka »

Sounds like a plan!
2017 JKU Rubicon
Pevious Jeeps: 1981 J10, 1975 Cherokee, 2008 JK, 2005 KJ, 1989 XJ
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Cecil14
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Re: Need opinions on intake and cam and headers

Post by Cecil14 »

Most people I've seen swear up and down by the Remflex gaskets. They're not cheap, but you really get what you pay for. There are also a multitude of locking header bolts on the market now that might help with the warping flange issue.

As to valve springs, you should be able to do them with the heads on the engine, but you need a way to hold the valves up in the head while you remove the springs. As soon as you take the keepers and retainers off, the valves will fall down into the cylinder. I've seen people stuff rope down in the cylinder, use compressed air, and a variety of other methods. If you don't keep the valves up tight to the head, it might be difficult to get the springs/keepers/retainers all back on when you're done.


aa
1983 J-10 - 4.6L(MPFI)/CS130D/Hydroboost/NV3550/D300/44/44/3.54/Disc-Disc/32s/42 gallon 'burb tank

Fast Eddie
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Location: South Lyon, MI

Re: Need opinions on intake and cam and headers

Post by Fast Eddie »

OK looking at the Hedman headers, the 99246 and the 99256. One is a longer tube header and the other is shorter length like the Doug Thorley. For my 79 it takes me to the 99246, but the 99256 looks like a easier install and have to get a the exhaust made either way!! Any users out there on these Hedman headers?? THX!
1979 J20, 360 w/NV4500/D300 Twin Stick/3.73 SOLD
1978 Cherokee Chief W/T Levi interior, 360 Q/T. SCRAPPED
1970 Gladiator J4800 Camper Special, Buick 350, 4spd. SOLD
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: Need opinions on intake and cam and headers

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

Cecil14 wrote:Most people I've seen swear up and down by the Remflex gaskets. They're not cheap, but you really get what you pay for. There are also a multitude of locking header bolts on the market now that might help with the warping flange issue.

As to valve springs, you should be able to do them with the heads on the engine, but you need a way to hold the valves up in the head while you remove the springs. As soon as you take the keepers and retainers off, the valves will fall down into the cylinder. I've seen people stuff rope down in the cylinder, use compressed air, and a variety of other methods. If you don't keep the valves up tight to the head, it might be difficult to get the springs/keepers/retainers all back on when you're done.


aa
I had read a little bit about that method on keeping the valves up. i'll be honest, I'm not doing the main bulk of the work on the heads and Cam. I have someone who is doing most of that and they pretty much told me they are more comfortable removing the heads fully and machining them down and plan on the long way rather then try and shortcut it and end up having to pull the heads anyways...

The headers I'm going to use are going to be cheap POS... i don't expect them to last 3 years honestly..... but i just can't stretch the budget anymore and that includes the pricier gaskets... i'll just have to cross my fingers and hope the normal gaskets hold.
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:22 am

Re: Need opinions on intake and cam and headers

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

Fast Eddie wrote:OK looking at the Hedman headers, the 99246 and the 99256. One is a longer tube header and the other is shorter length like the Doug Thorley. For my 79 it takes me to the 99246, but the 99256 looks like a easier install and have to get a the exhaust made either way!! Any users out there on these Hedman headers?? THX!
i just noticed that i will have to modify my exhaust to make these work.. thanx for the heads up on that. i would love to find a set that i won't have to do that on... sigh... everytime i think i thought everything out there is another issue... :ugeek:
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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Cecil14
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Re: Need opinions on intake and cam and headers

Post by Cecil14 »

Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:I had read a little bit about that method on keeping the valves up. i'll be honest, I'm not doing the main bulk of the work on the heads and Cam. I have someone who is doing most of that and they pretty much told me they are more comfortable removing the heads fully and machining them down and plan on the long way rather then try and shortcut it and end up having to pull the heads anyways...

The headers I'm going to use are going to be cheap POS... i don't expect them to last 3 years honestly..... but i just can't stretch the budget anymore and that includes the pricier gaskets... i'll just have to cross my fingers and hope the normal gaskets hold.
I hear you on the budget. If it were mine, I would be pulling the head for sure. It's really not that much extra work, especially if everything is already out. Plus it gives you a much better view of what things look like inside.

Are your stock manifolds in good serviceable shape? If so, I think I would personally skip the cheap headers altogether at this point. The gain you will see from them as you have things setup now will be negligible, and the potential problems you're looking at are significant. Save your money on the cheap headers and save up for something decent, would be my advice.


aa
1983 J-10 - 4.6L(MPFI)/CS130D/Hydroboost/NV3550/D300/44/44/3.54/Disc-Disc/32s/42 gallon 'burb tank
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REDONE
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Re: Need opinions on intake and cam and headers

Post by REDONE »

Cecil14 wrote:
Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:
Are your stock manifolds in good serviceable shape? If so, I think I would personally skip the cheap headers altogether at this point. The gain you will see from them as you have things setup now will be negligible, and the potential problems you're looking at are significant. Save your money on the cheap headers and save up for something decent, would be my advice.


aa
I've told Rinkle' the same thing at least 5 times since he joined up, along with the cacophony of everyone else who's learned that lesson already. He's been set on headers since before his first post, so we're just going to have to let that dog hunt.
79 J-10 (Honcho Mucho) KE0LSU
304/Performance Fuel Injection TBI/MTA1/SP2P/Magnum rockers
T18/D20/D44s&4.10s/33" Mud Claws
Grizzly Locker Rear
4" front spring drop, 5" rear shackle flip
Chevy style HEI (ECM controlled)
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: Need opinions on intake and cam and headers

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

REDONE wrote:
Cecil14 wrote:
Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:
Are your stock manifolds in good serviceable shape? If so, I think I would personally skip the cheap headers altogether at this point. The gain you will see from them as you have things setup now will be negligible, and the potential problems you're looking at are significant. Save your money on the cheap headers and save up for something decent, would be my advice.


aa
I've told Rinkle' the same thing at least 5 times since he joined up, along with the cacophony of everyone else who's learned that lesson already. He's been set on headers since before his first post, so we're just going to have to let that dog hunt.
I’ve had 30 people tell me 30 different things from day one... I can’t follow everyone’s advice.
I honestly don’t want to waste money on headers right now but a lot of people have told me all this work would be a waste if I didn’t get them... so I played with the idea and the budget to incorporate them... it’s not working which is why I’m now going to stick with stock manifolds.

I get why it’s frustrating to have someone ask for opinions and not listen especially when you know you’re right. But I’m not you... I don’t have your experience\Knowledge and I have like 12 people (that I don’t really know or can vouch on their experience) all saying different things and I’m having to research what each is saying and make the best judgement off what I’m seeing...

On Facebook people swear I need headers to feel the full power. On here not so much. The website selling the previous Cams I was looking at all said “headers recommended”...

Doing the best I can with what I got...guess I can’t win them all.. sorry
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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fulsizjeep
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Re: Need opinions on intake and cam and headers

Post by fulsizjeep »

"On Facebook people swear I need headers to feel the full power." hahahahaha, not surprised...

My experience with Facebook FSJ discussions so far:
80% share that have no actual experience or clue
20% share with fairly sound advice
Maybe there is 5% margin of error...

Mix it all together and it is confusing. I have FB friends who I know have the experience and can articulate decent advice. Many of them, I know face to face. The rest of the FB jiberish I take with a grain of salt. I have to because there is so much BS and misinformation there. FB is a wasteland of (mis)information today that quickly fades away in the timeline tomorrow. I have suggested to many on FB that FSJN is a good place to get feedback on their questions. Even here on this forum, some comments and advice is inaccurate because the poster feels compelled to share something they think they know or understand. "I heard once." "Where?" "On Facebook." LOL

As far as stock AMC V8 exhaust manifolds go, they flow well just like they are. An improvement is made and often felt when running twice pipes. The two 401s we have with headers... The primary motivator to installing them was to replace one or both exhaust manifolds that were crapped out. New manifolds are kind of pricey and why would I want to put 30 something year old used manifolds on my motor?

Measure three times, cut once.
Flint Boardman
88 GW, 401/727/208, 5" lift, D44s/4.10s/locked up, 35s
https://jubileejeeps.org/quadratrac
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: Need opinions on intake and cam and headers

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

fulsizjeep wrote:"On Facebook people swear I need headers to feel the full power." hahahahaha, not surprised...

My experience with Facebook FSJ discussions so far:
80% share that have no actual experience or clue
20% share with fairly sound advice
Maybe there is 5% margin of error...

Mix it all together and it is confusing. I have FB friends who I know have the experience and can articulate decent advice. Many of them, I know face to face. The rest of the FB jiberish I take with a grain of salt. I have to because there is so much BS and misinformation there. FB is a wasteland of (mis)information today that quickly fades away in the timeline tomorrow. I have suggested to many on FB that FSJN is a good place to get feedback on their questions. Even here on this forum, some comments and advice is inaccurate because the poster feels compelled to share something they think they know or understand. "I heard once." "Where?" "On Facebook." LOL

As far as stock AMC V8 exhaust manifolds go, they flow well just like they are. An improvement is made and often felt when running twice pipes. The two 401s we have with headers... The primary motivator to installing them was to replace one or both exhaust manifolds that were crapped out. New manifolds are kind of pricey and why would I want to put 30 something year old used manifolds on my motor?

Measure three times, cut once.
Im quickly figuring out where the most reliable information is coming from haha!

I get that I’m a little needy and indecisive... but it’s not that I’m never listening or that I’m trying to be flaky... just trying to get the most well rounded vision I can before I attempt something I’ve never done before... I’m very very new to the 360... I’ve only had YJs and TJs to work on before this and they are a completely different beast and even then I had help. I’m pretty much going solo on this project so I’m going to be a little indecisive and I’m going to act like a dumb blonde because sometimes I am just a dumb blonde haha.

Long story short... I’m going stock manifolds now and will save for a full exhaust upgrade including headers later...

I really do appreciate the hand holding that’s been offered.. I can’t garantee I’ll listen to what everyone says, but I can garantee you I’m always respecting what everyone is saying.
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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