T-176 or T-177?

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FSJfan
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T-176 or T-177?

Post by FSJfan »

I’m in the process of planning a swap out and was looking at adapters and they were Bellhousing specific. I have a 77 J10 and don’t know if I have a T-177 or a T-176. Where on the transmission would it say? And are the Bellhousings the same between a T-176 and a T-177?
1977 Jeep J10 T-18 w/ wide ratio sitting on 33x12.50 I’m a high schooler without much mechanical background but I’m trying to learn. So thoroughness is greatly appreciated.
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Stuka
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Re: T-176 or T-177?

Post by Stuka »

A '77 won't have either. They were not used until 1980.

The only 4sp used in a '77 is a T18a. There was also a 3sp T15.
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Cecil14
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Re: T-176 or T-177?

Post by Cecil14 »

In addition to Stuka's comment, the only difference between the T-176/177/178 is gearing. Externally they are identical. As mentioned, though, if you have the original transmission, it's a T-18a.


aa
1983 J-10 - 4.6L(MPFI)/CS130D/Hydroboost/NV3550/D300/44/44/3.54/Disc-Disc/32s/42 gallon 'burb tank
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Re: T-176 or T-177?

Post by tgreese »

There is a difference externally. Transmissions for the V8 FSJs have long input shafts and ca 6" thick adapter/spacer between the engine and transmission. The 6 cylinder FSJs (and CJs and Commandos) have short input shafts and no adapter or a thin plate adapter.

Which engine? It's important.

Stuka is right, the T-17x never appeared in any Jeep before 1980. A '77 J10 had a Borg-Warner 3-speed with a cast iron case - the T-15 - or a Borg-Warner truck 4-speed - the T-18.

What's wrong with the transmission you have? What do you hope to accomplish? Both the T-18 and T-15 are good, strong heavy duty transmissions.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
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FSJfan
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Re: T-176 or T-177?

Post by FSJfan »

It has the 360 so it should be a T-18A then? I’m in the process of planning out a transmission swap. The main reason for the swap is to find a better shifting transmission and one with more parts available. So is the T-18A have the same bellhousing as the later T-176?
1977 Jeep J10 T-18 w/ wide ratio sitting on 33x12.50 I’m a high schooler without much mechanical background but I’m trying to learn. So thoroughness is greatly appreciated.
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Cecil14
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Re: T-176 or T-177?

Post by Cecil14 »

FSJfan wrote:It has the 360 so it should be a T-18A then? I’m in the process of planning out a transmission swap. The main reason for the swap is to find a better shifting transmission and one with more parts available. So is the T-18A have the same bellhousing as the later T-176?
I had a T-18 in my truck for a while; I hated it. It shifts like a dump truck. I believe the bellhousings are different between the T-18 and T-17x, but I don't recall 100%.

If I were swapping a transmission in, I would grab the entire setup from a newer Jeep with either an AX15 or NV3550. The bellhousings between the 6 cylinders and V8s are the same pattern. The NV3550 in my truck (with a 6 cylinder) puts the shifter right at the back of the trans inspection cover. With the V8 it would end up very close to the original spot.


aa
1983 J-10 - 4.6L(MPFI)/CS130D/Hydroboost/NV3550/D300/44/44/3.54/Disc-Disc/32s/42 gallon 'burb tank

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Re: T-176 or T-177?

Post by FSJfan »

Darn looks like I need to find a T-176 or T-150 bellhousing then. I’m planning on swapping a NV4500 in after getting the motor rebuilt with some more ponies.
1977 Jeep J10 T-18 w/ wide ratio sitting on 33x12.50 I’m a high schooler without much mechanical background but I’m trying to learn. So thoroughness is greatly appreciated.
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Re: T-176 or T-177?

Post by Stuka »

The issue you are going to have is you have a passenger drop front axle. Your t-case won’t bolt to any other manuals except the T18/T15.

Also, the T176/177 are not good transmissions. I have one. I greatly preferred the way the T18a shifted. The only advantage to the T176/177 is that first gear is usable.

No newer transmission setup with its t-case will work without swapping in a 80+ front J10 or WT Cherokee axle.
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tgreese
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Re: T-176 or T-177?

Post by tgreese »

There is no shortage of parts for the T-18.

Well, if you use a NV4500, you are going to need to adapt the output anyway, so you can use your choice of transfer case. If you converted to a T-17x, you could use a Dana 300 from a CJ to get passenger drop. Correct that you Dana 20 won't adapt to the T-17x.

I have not owned a Jeep with the T-17x, and I am surprised that Stuka thinks the shifting is not more car-like than a T-18. Supposedly the Jeep shift tops are in demand for hot rods because they drop on the the iron cased Ford Top Loader and make a tidy package. This indicates to me that they shift pretty much like the side-shifter that you'd normally have with a passenger car close ratio transmission. The T-17x aluminum shift tops are notorious for wearing out and getting stuck in gear ... but aftermarket rplacements ar3 available.

I have driven T-18-equipped Jeep trucks since I was a teenager, and it's no big deal to me. Mostly you just don't shift very much ... you have plenty of torque to push the truck around, and don't need to wind it out. So no frequent shifting like a close-ratio sports car or muscle car. It's a truck ... drive it like a truck. Generally it's only becomes a drag in stop and go traffic.

There is no meaningful difference designated by the external markings T-18 or T-18A or 13-01 as best I can tell. The Jeep wide ratio T-18 used for the V8 and 258 in the J-10 is the same transmission, except for the input shaft and bearing retainer. The Jeep Corp part number on the tag under one of the top cover bolts is uniquely identifying. You can tell the difference between the the wide ratio (6.32:1 low) version and close ratio (4.02:1 low, used in CJs and Commandos) by counting the teeth on the input gear, which will be 17 or 23 resp. But there's no external signs other than the tag.

Take a look under the truck and you will see that the long input of the transmissions used with V8s puts the shifter back in the cabin where you can reach it. NV4500s are really expensive, and I would use my tape and see where the shifter and transfer case will be before I spent a lot of money on a transmission that would be trouble to fit in.

Anthony is correct, the bell housings used in FSJs before 1980 are all the Jeep "universal" bell (Jeep PN 3215152) that matches the T-14 and T-15 pattern and is about 7" deep. This bell is adapted to the T-18, when used. As you may have read, the bell for a Jeep T-150 or T-17x is a bit shallower, and meant to connect to the Ford "butterfly" pattern. Note that the bell used with the SR-4, T-4 and T-5 is the same casting, and can be drilled to accept the Ford pattern.
Last edited by tgreese on Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:59 am, edited 4 times in total.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.

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FSJfan
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Re: T-176 or T-177?

Post by FSJfan »

I hadn’t planned on getting a 600 AA NV4500 to dana 20 adapter. I’d just get one that would bolt on to it with little modifications. The dana 300 was the plan. Around here NV4500s aren’t too bad for price. So the T-18 has the same bellhousing as the T-5?
1977 Jeep J10 T-18 w/ wide ratio sitting on 33x12.50 I’m a high schooler without much mechanical background but I’m trying to learn. So thoroughness is greatly appreciated.
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tgreese
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Re: T-176 or T-177?

Post by tgreese »

FSJfan wrote:I hadn’t planned on getting a 600 AA NV4500 to dana 20 adapter. I’d just get one that would bolt on to it with little modifications. The dana 300 was the plan. Around here NV4500s aren’t too bad for price. So the T-18 has the same bellhousing as the T-5?
No! 8-)

The PRE 1980 Jeep manual transmissions use the 3215152 bell. This is the T-14/T-15 bell. Your T-18 uses this bell with an adapter.

The T-17x uses the Ford pattern bell which had several different Jeep PNs. Functionally (for our purposes), the T-150 and T-17x bells are the same.

The SR4, T-4 and T-5 have their own bell. These are light duty transmissions that were mostly used in the CJs. They are the same CASTING as the T-17x bell, and can be modified to work with a Ford transmission (which the T-17x and T-150 are) by drilling some additional holes.

I have no idea what's needed to adapt a NV4500 to an AMC engine.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.
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Re: T-176 or T-177?

Post by tgreese »

<duplicate>
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.

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FSJfan
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Re: T-176 or T-177?

Post by FSJfan »

Oh okay. So the T-18 has the same bellhousing as the T-15? Do you know if the T-18s spacer can be taken off or is it non removable?
1977 Jeep J10 T-18 w/ wide ratio sitting on 33x12.50 I’m a high schooler without much mechanical background but I’m trying to learn. So thoroughness is greatly appreciated.
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tgreese
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Re: T-176 or T-177?

Post by tgreese »

It is removable. But the input shaft is very long.

This is the T-18 from my 1982 360 J20.

Image

ignore the back end, since it's completely different from your 1977. Notice the input shaft is very long, and the spacer/adapter is about 6" long. The input shaft goes through the adapter.

Here the puller is on the front of the transmission so I can remove the front bearing. Look at the length of the input shaft.

Image
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.

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FSJfan
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Re: T-176 or T-177?

Post by FSJfan »

Then if it has the same bellhousing as the T-15 is the T-15 also called the T-150 or is it different?
1977 Jeep J10 T-18 w/ wide ratio sitting on 33x12.50 I’m a high schooler without much mechanical background but I’m trying to learn. So thoroughness is greatly appreciated.
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tgreese
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Re: T-176 or T-177?

Post by tgreese »

Different. The T-150 is a Ford passenger car 3-speed, built under license for Jeep by Tremec. The T-15 is a Borg-Warner transmission.

The T-17x is an aluminum case Ford passenger car 4-speed transmission, built under license by Tremec for Jeep.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.
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Re: T-176 or T-177?

Post by Stuka »

Its not that it isn't more car like, its that the shifting is not as precise, and the shifters tend to wear fast (I have been through two shifters).

I have driven Mustangs with their version of this trans, and to me they feel better, but a lot of that is the much shorter shifter.
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Re: T-176 or T-177?

Post by FSJfan »

Okay if that’s the case I’ll be having to look for a bellhousing then. What years would the T-150 and T-176 come in? All cjs or are there other jeeps with it as well?
1977 Jeep J10 T-18 w/ wide ratio sitting on 33x12.50 I’m a high schooler without much mechanical background but I’m trying to learn. So thoroughness is greatly appreciated.
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Re: T-176 or T-177?

Post by Cecil14 »

Anything after 1980 got the newer transmissions. Be careful when looking around, though. There was a slew of different transmissions used, as Tim mentioned. Lots of SR4/T4/T5s out there that you DO NOT want any part of.

aa
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Re: T-176 or T-177?

Post by tgreese »

T-150 is CJ-5 and CJ-7 only, 1976-79 all engines.

T-176 was used in some CJs 1980-86 depending on options or equipment. All 304s (I presume) and many 258s got the T-176.

All full-size Jeeps except J20 1980-91 used a T-17x (T-176 or 177 or 178). It's not clear to me when and why these Jeeps got a different version with different ratios, but many FSJ transmissions are different from the CJ. The bells should be functionally all the same.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.
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