Electronic Carburetor injection

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Tatsadasayago
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by Tatsadasayago »

I 100% agree with MJMadness. This system is really just an add-on choke and leanout preventer.
I suppose if one spent most of their driving time at altitude, say over 5000 feet and the carb was jetted properly, that this system would help out when going down to the flat-lands where it would run lean. Of course, an altitude compensator equipped carb does essentially the same thing regarding mixture.
For 700.00+ I believe there are better ways to go.
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
A collection of parts flying in close formation

olenuskool
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Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by olenuskool »

Guys, Newby here so please don't flame too much. I've talked a lot with k&n about this deal and did quite a bit of research on this, fitech and sniper too. (I googled k&n eci and this forum came up. As a former happy JGC owner; I am a Jeep-fan & decided to join.)

After weighing my options, getting 'real' prices for everything needed for all of the efi and eci units, I've decided to order an eci next week for my 383sbc street rod. Out the door, it comes in at about half the cost of efi, it's completely made in America (at least for now) and I like my carburetor. I'm looking forward to finding out how close to efi-like I can get it.

Thank you for the add and I'm happy to share info from the tech at k&n if you're interested.

nightglide
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by nightglide »

I'd be interested and would love for you too keep up updated on how this works out.
Thanks
Owen
77 J10 360/T18/Dana20
Fitech fuel injection
4" Lift....3" body lift....35" ats

Nikkormat
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by Nikkormat »

I bet an industrious fella could DIY that even easier than fuel injection...
Gabe, "reformed" Jeep hoarder.
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

olenuskool wrote:Guys, Newby here so please don't flame too much. I've talked a lot with k&n about this deal and did quite a bit of research on this, fitech and sniper too. (I googled k&n eci and this forum came up. As a former happy JGC owner; I am a Jeep-fan & decided to join.)

After weighing my options, getting 'real' prices for everything needed for all of the efi and eci units, I've decided to order an eci next week for my 383sbc street rod. Out the door, it comes in at about half the cost of efi, it's completely made in America (at least for now) and I like my carburetor. I'm looking forward to finding out how close to efi-like I can get it.

Thank you for the add and I'm happy to share info from the tech at k&n if you're interested.

and things just got interesting! please keep us informed on the ease of setup and what you get outta it. I'll admit the price is tempting, I honestly and an odd bird and like a Carb too (even though they frustrate the hell outta me and really could use someone showing me visually how to adjust it properly). My biggest issue with my Carb is cold starts and its old so it needs constant attention. that will change in a few months once I do an engine swap... I was excited as I found one 15 miles from me coming out of a jeep because they were doing an LS swap. it has 96K on it, no big deal as I'll take the engine I have currently out and do a full performance rebuild on that. that other engine will literally just tied my over while I attempt my first rebuild and IF, I screw it up I have a good solid engine to throw back in it while I attempt the rebuild again.
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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babywag
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by babywag »

Wow...I just don't see the benefit of this? It isn't hard to tune a carb to work properly.
My opinion, save a few extra bills and just install a real EFI setup.
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag)

olenuskool
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Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by olenuskool »

The tech said he's seen the eci in action and the cold start is exceptional. No pedal-pumping, no choke, nothing, just turn the key and it starts & idles smoothly. (That's going to be strange with a carb.) They suggest slightly leaning the idle circuit and main jetting for max power or max mileage, set the afr thresholds and go. There are separate afr settings for idle & open throttle. He told me it's all simple and intuitive. Installation takes 2-3 hours. It requires a small electric pump. He told me that they've run the unit at 6 psi with no issues, but are recommending higher pressure to the injector. They're going to send installation instructions before I receive the unit too.

I ordered it and my unit will ship sometime in April. I will let you know how it goes.

olenuskool
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Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by olenuskool »

babywag wrote:Wow...I just don't see the benefit of this? It isn't hard to tune a carb to work properly.
My opinion, save a few extra bills and just install a real EFI setup.
Apples & oranges I guess. I enjoy working on my carb but to be honest; I like the way efi starts & runs at low speeds. If the eci will do what I think, it will help my decently tuned carb to start & run as well or better than efi, I'm hoping to get the same mileage and I've saved several hundred bucks.

Carburetors are actually pretty smart. Most of the features of efi systems are to make it do what a carb already does.
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

olenuskool wrote:
babywag wrote:Wow...I just don't see the benefit of this? It isn't hard to tune a carb to work properly.
My opinion, save a few extra bills and just install a real EFI setup.
Apples & oranges I guess. I enjoy working on my carb but to be honest; I like the way efi starts & runs at low speeds. If the eci will do what I think, it will help my decently tuned carb to start & run as well or better than efi, I'm hoping to get the same mileage and I've saved several hundred bucks.

Carburetors are actually pretty smart. Most of the features of efi systems are to make it do what a carb already does.

I'm just curious to see how it performs and the reviews I get. I'm still considering the EFI upgrade but right now I have an engine I need to buy along with performance parts, new exhaust, new tail gate kit for the window, fix 3 windows and lock actuators, new paint and new wood vinyls. At the very end of that i'll drop the tank and replace the fuel lines. so honestly every penny counts and even though $600 extra may not seem like a lot you also have to consider the time of install as that costs money too. I think when I get to the tail end of the project I could seem me splurging on a true EFI system (time and money) but for now I honestly believe this is a quick fix for a constant nagging problem.

but that's just my thoughts.

Now, if I fall into some extra funds you better believe id immediately purchase a full and true EFI. but I got to make those funds last in order to keep this guy on the road.
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust

olenuskool
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by olenuskool »

Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:
olenuskool wrote:
babywag wrote:Wow...I just don't see the benefit of this? It isn't hard to tune a carb to work properly.
My opinion, save a few extra bills and just install a real EFI setup.
Apples & oranges I guess. I enjoy working on my carb but to be honest; I like the way efi starts & runs at low speeds. If the eci will do what I think, it will help my decently tuned carb to start & run as well or better than efi, I'm hoping to get the same mileage and I've saved several hundred bucks.

Carburetors are actually pretty smart. Most of the features of efi systems are to make it do what a carb already does.

I'm just curious to see how it performs and the reviews I get. I'm still considering the EFI upgrade but right now I have an engine I need to buy along with performance parts, new exhaust, new tail gate kit for the window, fix 3 windows and lock actuators, new paint and new wood vinyls. At the very end of that i'll drop the tank and replace the fuel lines. so honestly every penny counts and even though $600 extra may not seem like a lot you also have to consider the time of install as that costs money too. I think when I get to the tail end of the project I could seem me splurging on a true EFI system (time and money) but for now I honestly believe this is a quick fix for a constant nagging problem.

but that's just my thoughts.

Now, if I fall into some extra funds you better believe id immediately purchase a full and true EFI. but I got to make those funds last in order to keep this guy on the road.
Wow. You've got a lot going on with that wagon! If you're going full-on efi, I suggest that you spend some time checking on actual costs of everything needed. I did and it was eye opening. For instance; in addition to the sniper efi system, you're going to need this too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juJlPruQGq8

When you ask around about the fitech kit, the end price gets up there too and problems are beginning to show up. As they say, there is more to the story. I'm also not a fan of China-built car parts. (Sorry, just stubborn that way.)
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babywag
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by babywag »

olenuskool wrote:They suggest slightly leaning the idle circuit and main jetting for max power or max mileage, set the afr thresholds and go. There are separate afr settings for idle & open throttle.
So detune your carb for the ultimate benefit LMAO.
Whole lotta $$ for very little IMHO.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum ... 406/page1/
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag)
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

olenuskool wrote:
Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:
olenuskool wrote:
Apples & oranges I guess. I enjoy working on my carb but to be honest; I like the way efi starts & runs at low speeds. If the eci will do what I think, it will help my decently tuned carb to start & run as well or better than efi, I'm hoping to get the same mileage and I've saved several hundred bucks.

Carburetors are actually pretty smart. Most of the features of efi systems are to make it do what a carb already does.

I'm just curious to see how it performs and the reviews I get. I'm still considering the EFI upgrade but right now I have an engine I need to buy along with performance parts, new exhaust, new tail gate kit for the window, fix 3 windows and lock actuators, new paint and new wood vinyls. At the very end of that i'll drop the tank and replace the fuel lines. so honestly every penny counts and even though $600 extra may not seem like a lot you also have to consider the time of install as that costs money too. I think when I get to the tail end of the project I could seem me splurging on a true EFI system (time and money) but for now I honestly believe this is a quick fix for a constant nagging problem.

but that's just my thoughts.

Now, if I fall into some extra funds you better believe id immediately purchase a full and true EFI. but I got to make those funds last in order to keep this guy on the road.
Wow. You've got a lot going on with that wagon! If you're going full-on efi, I suggest that you spend some time checking on actual costs of everything needed. I did and it was eye opening. For instance; in addition to the sniper efi system, you're going to need this too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juJlPruQGq8

When you ask around about the fitech kit, the end price gets up there too and problems are beginning to show up. As they say, there is more to the story. I'm also not a fan of China-built car parts. (Sorry, just stubborn that way.)
The engine has 166K on it right now and sat for many many years before I got ahold of it resulting in a very loud lifter tap and I mean LOUD (no its not exhaust leak). I'm about to purchase a 96K engine that's running like a top to swap over. I'm going to pull the original and rebuild it slowly over the next year or so and include RV CAM, New timing, aluminum heads, hypereutectic pistons, etc... that's where a lot of my money is going to go right now. Once the engine is built I'm going to pull the old/new engine, add aluminum radiator and probably end up of fixing my wiring harness and clean that up. Pull Heater blower motor and AC motor and clean those up while I have good access and probably fix some times I'm not expecting to. Scrap the exhaust, replace front fuel lines and maybe the brake lines and throw the rebuilt engine in. Add exhaust, drop tank and only then will I actually work on the fuel pump, skip plate etc. I'm going to upgrade the fuel pump to get ready for whatever fuel ignition conversation I go with.

then more than likely I'll be looking at the suspension and suring that up. then its paint time. Of course I'll be working on interior through out the way.

now don't get me wrong... this thing is daily driver status already, but I want this running and looking 100% in the next 3-4 years if money allows that.
Last edited by Rinkle_Stinkle on Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

babywag wrote:
olenuskool wrote:They suggest slightly leaning the idle circuit and main jetting for max power or max mileage, set the afr thresholds and go. There are separate afr settings for idle & open throttle.
So detune your carb for the ultimate benefit LMAO.
Whole lotta $$ for very little IMHO.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum ... 406/page1/
looks to be a toss up on that forum too... lots support it and lots don't.

I'm more curious to see what the reviews are once people start buying it and using it.
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust

olenuskool
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Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:44 pm

Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by olenuskool »

babywag wrote:
olenuskool wrote:They suggest slightly leaning the idle circuit and main jetting for max power or max mileage, set the afr thresholds and go. There are separate afr settings for idle & open throttle.
So detune your carb for the ultimate benefit LMAO.
Whole lotta $$ for very little IMHO.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum ... 406/page1/
Detune by slightly leaning the mixture? Please help me understand your thoughts. It's been my experience that slightly leaning most carburetors gets the engine closer to stoich which makes more power, but also gets closer to danger. I hope that my inputted afr value to the eci keeps it safe, fast and efficient. We'll see in a couple of months. (Hoping that it all works out as advertised!)
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Tatsadasayago
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by Tatsadasayago »

olenuskool wrote:
babywag wrote:
olenuskool wrote:They suggest slightly leaning the idle circuit and main jetting for max power or max mileage, set the afr thresholds and go. There are separate afr settings for idle & open throttle.
So detune your carb for the ultimate benefit LMAO.
Whole lotta $$ for very little IMHO.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum ... 406/page1/
Detune by slightly leaning the mixture? Please help me understand your thoughts. It's been my experience that slightly leaning most carburetors gets the engine closer to stoich which makes more power, but also gets closer to danger. I hope that my inputted afr value to the eci keeps it safe, fast and efficient. We'll see in a couple of months. (Hoping that it all works out as advertised!)
The reason for leaning out the carb jetting is to allow the unit to enrich the mixture to Stoich 14.7:1 (Or thereabouts). When power is the main focus, a 12:1 mixture (With proper timing) builds more power than a lean one. I doubt this unit has the ability to sense manifold absolute pressure, mass air flow and other key features that make EFI so quick to adapt. Like I said previously, it seems to be a 700.00 replacement for a proven choke system.
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
A collection of parts flying in close formation
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Tatsadasayago
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by Tatsadasayago »

I'll provide some perspective.
Back in 2009 I was so pissed off at my Edelbrock 1406's performance when wheeling at angles and the over-rich mixture at altitude that I decided to do something about it. My first idea was to ditch the 1406 and go with a more wheeling-friendly Holley 4160. My second idea was to employ the Percey's Adjust-a-jet metering plate so I could change mixture at altitude without the hassle of removing the float bowl to change jets.
Image
That worked kinda nicely but I didn't have any way of knowing what the mixture ratio was and it was still a pain to stop and adjust the mixture needle. I wanted to do it from the drivers seat.
Enter, the Innovate G3 AF/R meter and a vernier cable from NAPA.
Image
Image
With some crafting of some brass stock I made a lever system that would raise and lower the mixture needle with the dash mounted vernier cable.
I used a lathe to remove the threads on the needle and attached it to a linkage employing an accelerator pump S-link from a Carter ThermoQuad®.
The first linkage was too sloppy so I created a better design and installed it.
This is the design I made in 3DsMax:
Image

After calibrating and adjustments I took off on a flatland round trip to Fresno from Sacramento, CA. Keeping the AF/r at 14.7:1 on the flats at a steady 65 MPH I averaged 19.9 MPG over the trip. A few weeks later I drove down to Sonoroa, CA to visit Stuka and several others at a meet n greet. That trip was a bit longer and I took the up and down route in the dead of summer which reduced the MPG to around 16.5.
Overall, I learned that while yes, this was better than a regular carb, the cost was coming close to a junkyard GM TBI system. If it hadn't been for all the additives in Cali pump gas I'd still be running the system, but it destroyed two Percy's plates so I gave up. I seriously doubt this KnN system can even come close to my setup and definitely can't hang with EFI.
Oh, and I might add that cold weather starts at 6700' was a piece of cake. Press the knob, pull to full rich (.120" jet size), pump three times and she lit with no problems. As the engine warmed up I would gradually lean out until the coolant temp was 160-180. Badda Bing! No choke required.
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
A collection of parts flying in close formation

olenuskool
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by olenuskool »

Tatsadasayago wrote:
olenuskool wrote:
babywag wrote: So detune your carb for the ultimate benefit LMAO.
Whole lotta $$ for very little IMHO.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum ... 406/page1/
Detune by slightly leaning the mixture? Please help me understand your thoughts. It's been my experience that slightly leaning most carburetors gets the engine closer to stoich which makes more power, but also gets closer to danger. I hope that my inputted afr value to the eci keeps it safe, fast and efficient. We'll see in a couple of months. (Hoping that it all works out as advertised!)
The reason for leaning out the carb jetting is to allow the unit to enrich the mixture to Stoich 14.7:1 (Or thereabouts). When power is the main focus, a 12:1 mixture (With proper timing) builds more power than a lean one. I doubt this unit has the ability to sense manifold absolute pressure, mass air flow and other key features that make EFI so quick to adapt. Like I said previously, it seems to be a 700.00 replacement for a proven choke system.
Your stoich & afr numbers are close. I do not intend to lean my carb to stoich, probably closer to 13:1 to begin with and use the eci from there. And since the carb functions as it is designed (utilizing manifold absolute pressure [vacuum], mass air flow and other key features to operate) why would the eci need to sense those features? I see the eci as a fuel-trim or supplemental device to the carb, not a major supplier of fuel. I'll bet it provides less than 5% of total fuel needed.

btw: Your mechanical leanout device is cool. I've used the rapidjet metering blocks which use emulsion tubes.
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

so riddle me this... I was just told that the newer Holly Sniper kits don't require you to upgrade the fuel pump. can anyone verify this?
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust

olenuskool
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Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:44 pm

Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by olenuskool »

Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:so riddle me this... I was just told that the newer Holly Sniper kits don't require you to upgrade the fuel pump. can anyone verify this?
From Holley:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juJlPruQGq8

"Holley and Sniper will help you to complete your EFI swap with our new EFI Conversion Fuel Tanks. Each tank is a direct fit for your application-no modifications necessary. The kit includes the tank, a 255 lph fuel pump, internal baffling, a fuel level sender, and the filler neck. The tank is powder coated for corrosion resistance and great looks. These tank kits are a complete solution for your EFI project!"
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Stuka
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by Stuka »

Missed this post somehow. I don’t understand how this can work without a throttle position sensor. When you let of the throttle it will go lean, is this then going to shoot fuel in? How do you handle a fuel map for different sized engines?
2017 JKU Rubicon
Pevious Jeeps: 1981 J10, 1975 Cherokee, 2008 JK, 2005 KJ, 1989 XJ
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