Electronic Carburetor injection

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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

Stuka wrote:Missed this post somehow. I don’t understand how this can work without a throttle position sensor. When you let of the throttle it will go lean, is this then going to shoot fuel in? How do you handle a fuel map for different sized engines?

all good questions that I don't have answers for haha :lol:
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
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olenuskool
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Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by olenuskool »

Stuka wrote:Missed this post somehow. I don’t understand how this can work without a throttle position sensor. When you let of the throttle it will go lean, is this then going to shoot fuel in? How do you handle a fuel map for different sized engines?
I asked K&N the same questions. It's my understanding that fuel is injected the moment the afr goes leaner than the inputted value, regardless of throttle position. A fuel map is not needed because the carb takes care of more than 95% of the mixture and the eci is in play less than 5%, regardless of engine size. I was told that the eci is purely afr driven. It doesn't matter what size carburetor or engine is used, the only thing that matters is air fuel ratio.
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Stuka
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by Stuka »

olenuskool wrote:
Stuka wrote:Missed this post somehow. I don’t understand how this can work without a throttle position sensor. When you let of the throttle it will go lean, is this then going to shoot fuel in? How do you handle a fuel map for different sized engines?
I asked K&N the same questions. It's my understanding that fuel is injected the moment the afr goes leaner than the inputted value, regardless of throttle position. A fuel map is not needed because the carb takes care of more than 95% of the mixture and the eci is in play less than 5%, regardless of engine size. I was told that the eci is purely afr driven. It doesn't matter what size carburetor or engine is used, the only thing that matters is air fuel ratio.
That just makes it sound like it would act strange when the throttle plates are closed and you are engine braking. And engine size would definitely have an impact as to how much fuel to inject to get out of the lean state.

But regardless I think the thing is a waste of time. Rarely have I had lean issues on a carb, its nearly always rich conditions that are of the issue.
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Pevious Jeeps: 1981 J10, 1975 Cherokee, 2008 JK, 2005 KJ, 1989 XJ
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babywag
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by babywag »

olenuskool wrote:
babywag wrote:Wow...I just don't see the benefit of this? It isn't hard to tune a carb to work properly.
My opinion, save a few extra bills and just install a real EFI setup.
Apples & oranges I guess. I enjoy working on my carb but to be honest; I like the way efi starts & runs at low speeds. If the eci will do what I think, it will help my decently tuned carb to start & run as well or better than efi, I'm hoping to get the same mileage and I've saved several hundred bucks.

Carburetors are actually pretty smart. Most of the features of efi systems are to make it do what a carb already does.
It'll NEVER run as well or better than a properly tuned efi system.

Consider this scenario on a stocker wag w/ a 360.
Holley Sniper 2bbl EFI $1099 includes fuel system kit
K&N ECI $700, 4bbl intake $300, + fuel pump & lines, WOW look @ those savings!!!
Saving a couple hundred? Not really...but, so little bang for your buck.

Carbs are far from "pretty smart" lol, and of course an efi system does what a carb does(meets an engines fueling needs), however EFI does it better.

Just my .02 but for the OP of this thread TOTAL waste of $$$
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag)

olenuskool
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Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by olenuskool »

babywag wrote:
olenuskool wrote:
babywag wrote:Wow...I just don't see the benefit of this? It isn't hard to tune a carb to work properly.
My opinion, save a few extra bills and just install a real EFI setup.
Apples & oranges I guess. I enjoy working on my carb but to be honest; I like the way efi starts & runs at low speeds. If the eci will do what I think, it will help my decently tuned carb to start & run as well or better than efi, I'm hoping to get the same mileage and I've saved several hundred bucks.

Carburetors are actually pretty smart. Most of the features of efi systems are to make it do what a carb already does.
It'll NEVER run as well or better than a properly tuned efi system.

Consider this scenario on a stocker wag w/ a 360.
Holley Sniper 2bbl EFI $1099 includes fuel system kit
K&N ECI $700, 4bbl intake $300, + fuel pump & lines, WOW look @ those savings!!!
Saving a couple hundred? Not really...but, so little bang for your buck.

Carbs are far from "pretty smart" lol, and of course an efi system does what a carb does(meets an engines fueling needs), however EFI does it better.

Just my .02 but for the OP of this thread TOTAL waste of $$$
Having done my research on this; I think the eci is aimed at those who already have a carburetor. The Sniper (and fitech) price comparisons are also a bit unfair due to the misleading sales pitch of a base unit. (Much more is needed, do a little research.) That changes your $$ theory by approximately $1k.

For me; my 600 hp engine would need $1600+ worth of efi related parts to work properly and will still get beat by a good carb at the strip.

The bottom line to the performance of all IC engines comes down to air fuel ratio. The engine has no idea what is on top of the manifold, it only cares how efficient combustion is. The eci is totally based on afr.

I will know for sure in a couple of months...
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by babywag »

My opinion is directed to the OP, not your 600hp engine or it's requirements...sigh
My price comparison is for HIS FSJ.

As for additional stuff needed for the $1099 Sniper 2300 kit, enlighten me...what else is needed for his FSJ?
It bolts right onto the intake, the fuel kit includes the pump, fittings, and hoses.

"I think the eci is aimed at those who already have a carburetor."
lol, ALL FSJ's came with a carburetor.

Hope it works for your 600hp engine, for a FSJ owner looking to improve, I and others on here think it's a waste of $$
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag)

olenuskool
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by olenuskool »

babywag wrote:My opinion is directed to the OP, not your 600hp engine or it's requirements...sigh
My price comparison is for HIS FSJ.

As for additional stuff needed for the $1099 Sniper 2300 kit, enlighten me...what else is needed for his FSJ?
It bolts right onto the intake, the fuel kit includes the pump, fittings, and hoses.

"I think the eci is aimed at those who already have a carburetor."
lol, ALL FSJ's came with a carburetor.

Hope it works for your 600hp engine, for a FSJ owner looking to improve, I and others on here think it's a waste of $$
My apologies to you and OP, however the original post from OP: "Anyone seen the new K&N ECI kit? What are our thoughts on this? Says it’s multi adjustable. How much performance can you get from it? Pros? Cons?" Nothing mentioned about his wagon, I took it as more of an overall question. Many run a Q-jet/edelbrock and i've even worked on a vac-secondary holley on a friend's dads hopped up fsj, however your thoughts are noted.

Concerning the additional stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juJlPruQGq8 and "Holley and Sniper will help you to complete your EFI swap with our new EFI Conversion Fuel Tanks. Each tank is a direct fit for your application-no modifications necessary. The kit includes the tank, a 255 lph fuel pump, internal baffling, a fuel level sender, and the filler neck. The tank is powder coated for corrosion resistance and great looks. These tank kits are a complete solution for your EFI project!" The tank kit is $600+ which brings your $1099 to over $1700. (Not counting the cost of installation & tuner fees if needed.) Having gone way down the road on efi systems; the devil is in the details...

More to your point that the eci is a waste of money for FSJ owners at $699 + $300 for a manifold if needed. If so; why spend $1700+ if the eci will perform as well?

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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by olenuskool »

Stuka wrote:
olenuskool wrote:
Stuka wrote:Missed this post somehow. I don’t understand how this can work without a throttle position sensor. When you let of the throttle it will go lean, is this then going to shoot fuel in? How do you handle a fuel map for different sized engines?
I asked K&N the same questions. It's my understanding that fuel is injected the moment the afr goes leaner than the inputted value, regardless of throttle position. A fuel map is not needed because the carb takes care of more than 95% of the mixture and the eci is in play less than 5%, regardless of engine size. I was told that the eci is purely afr driven. It doesn't matter what size carburetor or engine is used, the only thing that matters is air fuel ratio.
That just makes it sound like it would act strange when the throttle plates are closed and you are engine braking. And engine size would definitely have an impact as to how much fuel to inject to get out of the lean state.

But regardless I think the thing is a waste of time. Rarely have I had lean issues on a carb, its nearly always rich conditions that are of the issue.
Your opinion that the thing is a waste of time w/o experience or data seems unfair. Engine size is relative when a properly sized carburetor is used, therefore the eci should perform as advertised, based on afr. I would not expect the eci to cover for an improperly sized carb, just as I would not expect a 400hp efi system to properly supply a 600+hp engine.

IMHO: It seems that the divide for most people is admitting the importance of afr to every engine. (Regardless of size, power, etc.) I will admit that it took me a while to properly understand that the eci works in conjunction with the carb to produce an optimal afr. If the eci/carb combo actually does this; I do not need efi. I cannot wait to get the system and try it...
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by babywag »

olenuskool wrote:
babywag wrote:My opinion is directed to the OP, not your 600hp engine or it's requirements...sigh
My price comparison is for HIS FSJ.

As for additional stuff needed for the $1099 Sniper 2300 kit, enlighten me...what else is needed for his FSJ?
It bolts right onto the intake, the fuel kit includes the pump, fittings, and hoses.

"I think the eci is aimed at those who already have a carburetor."
lol, ALL FSJ's came with a carburetor.

Hope it works for your 600hp engine, for a FSJ owner looking to improve, I and others on here think it's a waste of $$
My apologies to you and OP, however the original post from OP: "Anyone seen the new K&N ECI kit? What are our thoughts on this? Says it’s multi adjustable. How much performance can you get from it? Pros? Cons?" Nothing mentioned about his wagon, I took it as more of an overall question. Many run a Q-jet/edelbrock and i've even worked on a vac-secondary holley on a friend's dads hopped up fsj, however your thoughts are noted.

Concerning the additional stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juJlPruQGq8 and "Holley and Sniper will help you to complete your EFI swap with our new EFI Conversion Fuel Tanks. Each tank is a direct fit for your application-no modifications necessary. The kit includes the tank, a 255 lph fuel pump, internal baffling, a fuel level sender, and the filler neck. The tank is powder coated for corrosion resistance and great looks. These tank kits are a complete solution for your EFI project!" The tank kit is $600+ which brings your $1099 to over $1700. (Not counting the cost of installation & tuner fees if needed.) Having gone way down the road on efi systems; the devil is in the details...

More to your point that the eci is a waste of money for FSJ owners at $699 + $300 for a manifold if needed. If so; why spend $1700+ if the eci will perform as well?
The ECI is $700, for him to use it would REQUIRE an intake another $300.
The "additional stuff" of a tank, show me their offering for a FSJ tank lol. It is NOT a requirement for EFI on these.
The Sniper 2300 is a 2bbl kit, bolts right to the intake manifold. A 4bbl kit yeah would require an intake swap just like the ECI.
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_sy ... s/550-849K
$1099 with fuel system...

Or for ~$75 do this...if for whatever reason and skip the fuel kit for some additional savings.
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Many many years/miles of trouble free service.

No offense you may have done your research for whatever car your working on, but sounds like it isn't a FSJ, and it sounds like you don't know much about them.
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag)

olenuskool
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by olenuskool »

fyi: I called/asked k&n about a 2-bbl eci and they will be producing one "very soon".

The sniper fuel tank choice is up to you. You could be 100% correct in your opinion about the sniper working fine as is for FSJ's, however a friend who lives in bowling green and works for holley told me that the tank kit is a requirement but not shown as required due to the upcharge increasing their base price. (Think about it, why would they carry so much inventory of sniper fuel tanks/pumps/etc.?) IMO; it's similar to the command center and other 'options' that fitech owners end up with to make their units work properly. Example: If one invests in either the sniper or fitech at their low advertised price and has problems, they will be told to purchase the tank, command center, etc to correct 'their' issue. Ask around as i have... Most will throw more $$ at their initial investment in order to make it work properly.

I'm not at all offended. You are correct! I don't know much about FSJ's. My (limited) experience with FSJ's was r&r-ing to aftermarket manifolds & 4-bbls because I grew up in a high performance environment. I do know about engines & efficient combustion though and if the eci works as advertised, it will be less expensive and at least as good as efi. At least for my application.
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

my brain literally just exploded....
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

and to add fuel to the fire, they don't offer a 88 grand wag fuel tank option with Holley...... 3...2....1.... GO! haha jk
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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Stuka
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by Stuka »

olenuskool wrote:I do know about engines & efficient combustion though and if the eci works as advertised, it will be less expensive and at least as good as efi. At least for my application.
It will definitely not work as good as EFI. All their kit does is fix lean states. The single biggest issue with Jeeps and carbs is most of them have terrible flooding issues when they are run at any angle that isn't flat. EFI can run upside down forever without an issue. And speaking from first hand experience, having your carb flood out while climb a steep hill is not only inconvenient, but exceedingly dangerous. Because then not only can you no longer drive, but you also lose power brakes and power steering.

I still do not understand the purpose of this product. And I still think it could be dangerous if you live in the mountains (as I do) and you rely on engine braking to help hold your speed. As this thing will instantly start pumping fuel in to get rid of the lean state, which means you no longer have any sustainable engine braking.
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olenuskool
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Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by olenuskool »

Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:my brain literally just exploded....
lol. Don't overthink it. If you want efi - get it. If you want to keep your carb, keep it. There are pros/cons to both. I'm just sharing related information.

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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by olenuskool »

Stuka wrote:
olenuskool wrote:I do know about engines & efficient combustion though and if the eci works as advertised, it will be less expensive and at least as good as efi. At least for my application.
It will definitely not work as good as EFI. All their kit does is fix lean states. The single biggest issue with Jeeps and carbs is most of them have terrible flooding issues when they are run at any angle that isn't flat. EFI can run upside down forever without an issue. And speaking from first hand experience, having your carb flood out while climb a steep hill is not only inconvenient, but exceedingly dangerous. Because then not only can you no longer drive, but you also lose power brakes and power steering.

I still do not understand the purpose of this product. And I still think it could be dangerous if you live in the mountains (as I do) and you rely on engine braking to help hold your speed. As this thing will instantly start pumping fuel in to get rid of the lean state, which means you no longer have any sustainable engine braking.
Your theory is flawed. An efi can only be run upside down (or on angles that aren't flat) as long as the fuel tank is baffled well enough to keep the pickup covered in fuel. (Hence the sniper fuel tank/command center requirement.) If the fuel pickup is uncovered for only a moment with efi; the engine shuts off. Conversely, there are popular racing classes for very fast off-road trucks that fly through the air over huge jumps & around banked turns where carburetors are required. To be fair, those carburetors are highly modified, but they're still carburetors with float bowls and gravity fed jetting, just like the FSJ 2-bbl. So the FSJ carbs can be made to operate fine on angles & hills.

Concerning your engine braking thought: On a 360 FSJ engine (245hp) the engine operates at a bsfc of somewhere under .50. (The eci should allow me to operate closer to a more efficient .40 but for the sake of conversation, let's stay with the richer mixture of .50bsfc.) This = 122.5 pph (pounds per hour) of fuel usage at WOT. The eci will supply approximately 2%-5% of supplemental fuel as needed due to a lean condition. Again; let's go with worst case scenario of 5%. 5% of 122.5 = 6.125pph. 6.125pph is the same as .02 (1/50th) gallons per minute. .02 gpm = 2.6 ounces/min. There are 8.45 oz's in a normal coffee cup. So the eci injector fills a coffee cup about every 3 minutes. I'm not sure that will affect engine braking much.

Note that there are some physical advantages (piston & cylinder cooling) to injecting a small amount of fuel with the throttle closed, but i didn't factor any of that into the numbers above.
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by babywag »

olenuskool wrote:fyi: I called/asked k&n about a 2-bbl eci and they will be producing one "very soon".

The sniper fuel tank choice is up to you. You could be 100% correct in your opinion about the sniper working fine as is for FSJ's, however a friend who lives in bowling green and works for holley told me that the tank kit is a requirement but not shown as required due to the upcharge increasing their base price. (Think about it, why would they carry so much inventory of sniper fuel tanks/pumps/etc.?) IMO; it's similar to the command center and other 'options' that fitech owners end up with to make their units work properly. Example: If one invests in either the sniper or fitech at their low advertised price and has problems, they will be told to purchase the tank, command center, etc to correct 'their' issue. Ask around as i have... Most will throw more $$ at their initial investment in order to make it work properly.

I'm not at all offended. You are correct! I don't know much about FSJ's. My (limited) experience with FSJ's was r&r-ing to aftermarket manifolds & 4-bbls because I grew up in a high performance environment. I do know about engines & efficient combustion though and if the eci works as advertised, it will be less expensive and at least as good as efi. At least for my application.
Many of us FSJ'ers have converted to efi, again a tank is NOT a requirement, and as I hinted above Holley doesn't even offer one.

If someone wants an efi tank, there are options available @ a fraction of the cost vs. $600. S10, XJ, Suburban, etc.
Can modify the existing tank to accept a tanks inc. or similar pump, or do like I did and modify a sending unit and a stock OEM type pump.
Or, can simply run an external inline pump, they work fine too.

Holley is in the business to make $$, of course they are going to do everything in their power to persuade someone to buy a tank.
Far as the FiTech fuel command center in a Jeep....I'll just say LMAO! Again big 'ole waste of $$.

A stock 360 doesn't need a crazy top end efi system/fuel system, same thing as folks slapping a carb that's way too big on 'em.
They're low-ish revving engines for the most part in a FSJ. Pretty much all the aftermarket efi offerings are overkill.
Take the Fitech fuel command center...what do they come with a 340lph pump LMAO, uber overkill.
Even a mild build still won't require anything close to that much fuel, EVER.
Or the Holley Sniper tank, and it's 255lph pump, again OVERKILL, UNNECESSARY!

Again for you maybe the ECI is what you want, cool, hope it works for you, but for a FSJ it's a big 'ole waste of $$, and I see no real benefit.
A guy could buy a standalone wideband, and dial in a carb for far less $$ than the ECI if keeping a carb, or for whatever reason doesn't want to do the efi conversion.
For $700 could probably find a guy to tune a carb to actually work properly, and not even need a bandaid like the ECI.
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag)

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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by MJMadness »

Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:my brain literally just exploded....
I'm with you. I keep reading this stuff and it feels like I'm losing gear teeth off my differential.

This product is for people that can't tune a carb correctly, and it's not going to make that incorrectly tuned carb as good as real EFI. :roll:

Also, I wouldn't trust K&N to filter my engine's air, I'm sure as hell not going to let them manage the AFR. :lol:

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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by jfliege »

If you want to go this route just do a TBI conversion makes way more sense or dish out the big bucks for multiport. at least that's my 2 pennies.
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olenuskool
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Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by olenuskool »

Update as promised: Got my ECI installed. Welding the 02 bung to my exhaust was a bit of a pain, but I found & repaired a leak so it worked out fine. The rest of the installation was super-easy. I followed the instructions and it started as easy as my SUV. I initially changed nothing on the carb and noticed no difference. I set the afr to 12.7, then leaned the jets down 2 sizes and turned the mixture screws in 1/4 turns on the metering plates and the eci kicked in and did what it's supposed to do. The engine sounds crisper and feels like it has more power. I plan to work with the afr and cofficient settings some more just for fun and to see what it can do. I'm surprised at the simplicity and happy with the performance so far.
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Re: Electronic Carburetor injection

Post by Renodemona »

Aircraft engines have been using this system for years for small engines (Some of the early Rotax used this, they now have MPI) that are in tight spaces preventing them from having carb heat (system to recirculate warm air to prevent icing in the carb venturis). It's exactly what it says, it sprays atomized fuel somewhere along the intake or manifold. It works fine for those applications (Dad's plane been running it for a while now) but only because it is better than running a carb without carb heat. Aircraft engines aren't put through the rapid and repeated throttle movements like a car is when driving. Why am I talking about some homebuilt airplane? To show this is an old way of spraying fuel and newer EFI systems (even good old TBI) have more feedback and control. The only reason it is used is because of a specific problem to overcome, in this case, no room for carb heat on a very small engine. If you (or anyone using this) gets good results, that is awesome, then it works for you. I don't see for the money this being superior to any other FI system though. And yes, I have done 2 systems. I built a TBI system which worked ok (better than my Holley Avenger anyway). I just installed FiTech and an in tank pump that is fantastic. If it is dialed for you, awesome. I do see that you had to re-jet and dial screws to get everything on point. One of my reasons for EFI is I don't have to do that. If I have to put in different jets and tune and tune and tune and tune like a carb, uh, why am I doing this again? LOL I'm sure they will sell a bunch for the hot rod group though.
"Wait, what's on fire!?" KJ7TCT
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1976 Cherokee w/t 'Susan' 401/TH400/QT(PT)
FiTech Go EFI, Edelbrock Performer intake
3" Rough Country Springs, HEI Dizzy
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2018 Cherokee Trailhawk V6 'Sedna'
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