Serehill's Tailgate relay diagram

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babywag
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Re: Serehill's Tailgate relay diagram

Post by babywag »

Early motors are different than late motors.
They get ground via case. Late motors do not.

Rick was(or should have been) well aware of differences and harness should be compatible. However folks make mistakes and he could have set it up for a late motor? Or maybe it was not specified when harness was ordered?

Need to check outputs of harness to see if it’s setup correctly.
Maybe post a new thread to see if you can find someone else who has an early Jeep with a working harness and verify setup.
Or see if someone has instructions that show/tell setup for early motor.
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag)

will e
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Re: Serehill's Tailgate relay diagram

Post by will e »

dodgerammi,
I did the same thing. The motor defiantly shows a ground connection. But something is happening that I don't understand. The tailgate safety switch operation doesn't appear to be included in both up and down.

46 is the power wire for the tailgate switch at the tail gate
53 is the power wire for the tailgate switch in the inst panel

Two motor control wires come from both switches. They are marked 47 and 48 at the tail gate switch. They connect to the 47a and 48a wires, which come from the inst panel swtich, at the tail gate electrical connector.

Two wires 47B and 48B are spliced into (47/47a) and (48/48a) respectively at the electrical connector.

47B connects to the tailgate safety switch which has 47C connecting to the one terminal on the motor. (This circuit is described as 'tailgate motor up' in the Legend but it connected to the 'DN' on the tailgate switch diagram).

48B connects to the other terminal on the motor. It does not go through the safety switch. This means if the motor is using ground, when 48B is energized it will operate the motor regardless of the position of the safety switch. Interestingly it is shows as the 'up' circuit on the Tailgate Switch diagram. (This circuit is described as 'tailgate motor down' in the Legend but it connected to the 'power' on the tailgate switch diagram).


Since neither the switch shows a ground it does support the theory that the motor is using its own ground to complete the circuit. (Something Babywag confirmed while I was typing this)

It would be interesting to know if the motor can be operated by supplying negative to the body of the motor and positive to either of the terminals.

It would also be interesting to know if the tailgate safety works in both the up and down position. The diagram contradicts itself but I would guess the window will go down even if safety switch is not closed.

I know in my 82 it won't operate either up or down if the switch is not closed.

The 1974 diagram is similar.

The circuit doesn't appear in the 76/78/79 model year diagrams.
81 Waggy 'WILL E' Retired
82 Cherokee WT - SOA/SF/high steer/Alcan springs/agr box/Borgeson steering shaft/AMC 401/performer/holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS (2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave, Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37X12.5/Corbeau XRS Baja & 5 point retractable harness/Hella Aux lights/tuffy console/killer32 sliders/Evil Twin bumpers, rack and roll cage/WARN 8000/TT Fabworks steering brace/dual batts/custom TC skid plate/ARB fridge
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dodgerammit
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Re: Serehill's Tailgate relay diagram

Post by dodgerammit »

will e wrote:dodgerammi,


It would be interesting to know if the motor can be operated by supplying negative to the body of the motor and positive to either of the terminals.

Exactly. If turtlehead simply disconnected one of the wires from the motor and grounds the case, then gives input through the connected terminal as babywag stated, will the motor operate? If so, try the other direction.

If the motor is good, we just need to remove the grounding feature from the input relays (possible different relay connections).

If the motor is bad, maybe just bolt in a more modern motor that is reverse polarity.
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red/3M Ebony Metallic woodgrain, with honey interior) AMC 360 :cry: 2004 4.8LS/Advance Adapter/727/242 D44/AMC20 Serehill tailgate and headlight harnesses :fsj: Ongoing thread-viewtopic.php?t=11897

92 Wrangler Islander 4.0/32RH/231 D30/D35 RHD

SJTD
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Re: Serehill's Tailgate relay diagram

Post by SJTD »

I thought the early motors had a ground wire but doesn't matter to this discussion.

The late motor is not grounded. The two wires are the only connections. As splained above the motor gets 12V to one lead or the other with the unpowered lead being grounded.

If the old motor is internally grounded with 12v being applied to one lead or the other seems to me the motor would still work with the relay system. If it has two sets of windings seems to me grounding both ends of the unused winding, which is what the relay system would do, shouldn't be a problem. Not so?
Sic friatur crustulum

'84 GW with Nissan SD33T, early Chev NV4500, 300, narrowed Ford reverse 44, narrowed Ford 60, SOA/reversed shackle in fornt, lowered mount/flipped shackle in rear.

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Re: Serehill's Tailgate relay diagram

Post by SJTD »

turtlehead wrote:
SJTD wrote:I should've thought of this before. Do you have a meter?

Hook it up to the two motor leads on the terminal strip and see what you get. Should be 12V in one direction and -12V in the other.

It's not unheard of to get a bad rebuilt motor.
Ok... hooked up my meter to the terminal strip to the two wires I have running to the motor (this is my second time ever "experimenting with the meter" so not sure if I did things right) but... I did NOT get 12v and -12v - I got like .3400 or something and less flipping the switch either direction. - never got a "-" "negative" reading.

Bad ground? - pretty sure my ground is solid, but I'll double check.

What else should I try/check?
Need some clarification. Was the motor connected for this test?

For this testing the new system needs to be grounded.

Need to test with the motor out of the circuit. Just want to check if the relay system is supplying +12v to the motor terminals in one switch position and -12v in the other.

As indicated in other posts above the motor needs to be grounded to test it and when installed the taigate needs a ground. Maybe the relay stem provides it when properly installed.
Sic friatur crustulum

'84 GW with Nissan SD33T, early Chev NV4500, 300, narrowed Ford reverse 44, narrowed Ford 60, SOA/reversed shackle in fornt, lowered mount/flipped shackle in rear.
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babywag
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Re: Serehill's Tailgate relay diagram

Post by babywag »

SJTD wrote:I thought the early motors had a ground wire but doesn't matter to this discussion.

The late motor is not grounded. The two wires are the only connections. As splained above the motor gets 12V to one lead or the other with the unpowered lead being grounded.

If the old motor is internally grounded with 12v being applied to one lead or the other seems to me the motor would still work with the relay system. If it has two sets of windings seems to me grounding both ends of the unused winding, which is what the relay system would do, shouldn't be a problem. Not so?
Beating a dead horse here...
Again the early motors are grounded via mounting/body ground.
One leg and ONLY one leg gets 12v to operate, the other leg makes the motor spin the opposite direction.
You cannot ground either terminal of the motor.
I learned this on my '73, putting ground to one terminal and 12v to the other KILLED my motor.
-Tony
'88 GW (aka Babywag)

will e
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Re: Serehill's Tailgate relay diagram

Post by will e »

I pondered this myself. Again, not an expert. But to me it seems that the motor would have an internal switch (relay?) or as you noted two separate circuits inside the motor. Two sets of windings or coils. Seems kind of complicated. Either way I would expect the motor to operate and not 'care' that the non-active circuit is grounded.

Babywag, do you know how the early grounded motors control electric flow and spin the motor in opposite directions?



I find this topic interesting. ;)
81 Waggy 'WILL E' Retired
82 Cherokee WT - SOA/SF/high steer/Alcan springs/agr box/Borgeson steering shaft/AMC 401/performer/holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS (2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave, Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37X12.5/Corbeau XRS Baja & 5 point retractable harness/Hella Aux lights/tuffy console/killer32 sliders/Evil Twin bumpers, rack and roll cage/WARN 8000/TT Fabworks steering brace/dual batts/custom TC skid plate/ARB fridge
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turtlehead
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Re: Serehill's Tailgate relay diagram

Post by turtlehead »

babywag wrote:
SJTD wrote:I thought the early motors had a ground wire but doesn't matter to this discussion.

The late motor is not grounded. The two wires are the only connections. As splained above the motor gets 12V to one lead or the other with the unpowered lead being grounded.

If the old motor is internally grounded with 12v being applied to one lead or the other seems to me the motor would still work with the relay system. If it has two sets of windings seems to me grounding both ends of the unused winding, which is what the relay system would do, shouldn't be a problem. Not so?
Beating a dead horse here...
Again the early motors are grounded via mounting/body ground.
One leg and ONLY one leg gets 12v to operate, the other leg makes the motor spin the opposite direction.
You cannot ground either terminal of the motor.
I learned this on my '73, putting ground to one terminal and 12v to the other KILLED my motor.

Sooo - knowing I have an early motor and knowing that the wiring harness is not right for that.

Will a later motor mount correctly to the same bracket/gears and all of the lifting mechanism?

Seems like the easiest solution at this point is to buy a newer motor
1972 Wagoneer
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Re: Serehill's Tailgate relay diagram

Post by SJTD »

babywag wrote:
SJTD wrote:I thought the early motors had a ground wire but doesn't matter to this discussion.

The late motor is not grounded. The two wires are the only connections. As splained above the motor gets 12V to one lead or the other with the unpowered lead being grounded.

If the old motor is internally grounded with 12v being applied to one lead or the other seems to me the motor would still work with the relay system. If it has two sets of windings seems to me grounding both ends of the unused winding, which is what the relay system would do, shouldn't be a problem. Not so?
Beating a dead horse here...
Again the early motors are grounded via mounting/body ground.
One leg and ONLY one leg gets 12v to operate, the other leg makes the motor spin the opposite direction.
You cannot ground either terminal of the motor.
I learned this on my '73, putting ground to one terminal and 12v to the other KILLED my motor.
Unfortunate that you find discussion useless.

So grounding the unused side is a no-no. I guess what goes on is that if that winding is grounded it is in effect a shorted generator and would add a load to the other winding. Hadn't thought of that.

Maybe splains what happened to Turtle's motor.
Sic friatur crustulum

'84 GW with Nissan SD33T, early Chev NV4500, 300, narrowed Ford reverse 44, narrowed Ford 60, SOA/reversed shackle in fornt, lowered mount/flipped shackle in rear.

will e
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Re: Serehill's Tailgate relay diagram

Post by will e »

SJTD wrote:
babywag wrote:
SJTD wrote:I thought the early motors had a ground wire but doesn't matter to this discussion.

The late motor is not grounded. The two wires are the only connections. As splained above the motor gets 12V to one lead or the other with the unpowered lead being grounded.

If the old motor is internally grounded with 12v being applied to one lead or the other seems to me the motor would still work with the relay system. If it has two sets of windings seems to me grounding both ends of the unused winding, which is what the relay system would do, shouldn't be a problem. Not so?
Beating a dead horse here...
Again the early motors are grounded via mounting/body ground.
One leg and ONLY one leg gets 12v to operate, the other leg makes the motor spin the opposite direction.
You cannot ground either terminal of the motor.
I learned this on my '73, putting ground to one terminal and 12v to the other KILLED my motor.
Unfortunate that you find discussion useless.

So grounding the unused side is a no-no. I guess what goes on is that if that winding is grounded it is in effect a shorted generator and would add a load to the other winding. Hadn't thought of that.

Maybe splains what happened to Turtle's motor.
But wouldn't the winding already be grounded? If the body is used as the ground the circuit would be continuously grounded, ready for power to be applied to the terminal, through the coil and into the ground. Adding a second ground shouldn't matter.

If there is an internal switch that disconnects the unpowered terminal from the system then grounding it shouldn't matter either. UNLESS the switch itself would allow the power from terminal 1 to terminal 2 and grounding it hoses the switch.

I would love to see a schematic of the motor.
81 Waggy 'WILL E' Retired
82 Cherokee WT - SOA/SF/high steer/Alcan springs/agr box/Borgeson steering shaft/AMC 401/performer/holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS (2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave, Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37X12.5/Corbeau XRS Baja & 5 point retractable harness/Hella Aux lights/tuffy console/killer32 sliders/Evil Twin bumpers, rack and roll cage/WARN 8000/TT Fabworks steering brace/dual batts/custom TC skid plate/ARB fridge

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Re: Serehill's Tailgate relay diagram

Post by SJTD »

But only the internal side of the unused winding is grounded so it's an open circuit. Grounding the other input wire completes the short circuit.

If this is what's going on you could put a meter on the down wire when the motor is going up and see what the voltage is.
Last edited by SJTD on Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sic friatur crustulum

'84 GW with Nissan SD33T, early Chev NV4500, 300, narrowed Ford reverse 44, narrowed Ford 60, SOA/reversed shackle in fornt, lowered mount/flipped shackle in rear.

SJTD
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Re: Serehill's Tailgate relay diagram

Post by SJTD »

turtlehead wrote:
babywag wrote:
SJTD wrote:I thought the early motors had a ground wire but doesn't matter to this discussion.

The late motor is not grounded. The two wires are the only connections. As splained above the motor gets 12V to one lead or the other with the unpowered lead being grounded.

If the old motor is internally grounded with 12v being applied to one lead or the other seems to me the motor would still work with the relay system. If it has two sets of windings seems to me grounding both ends of the unused winding, which is what the relay system would do, shouldn't be a problem. Not so?
Beating a dead horse here...
Again the early motors are grounded via mounting/body ground.
One leg and ONLY one leg gets 12v to operate, the other leg makes the motor spin the opposite direction.
You cannot ground either terminal of the motor.
I learned this on my '73, putting ground to one terminal and 12v to the other KILLED my motor.

Sooo - knowing I have an early motor and knowing that the wiring harness is not right for that.

Will a later motor mount correctly to the same bracket/gears and all of the lifting mechanism?

Seems like the easiest solution at this point is to buy a newer motor
Can't answer whether a newer motor will fit yours. I thought the early motors had three wires. :banghead:

But you still haven't answered about how you had things wired up for your test with the meter. Still might be a problem with the wiring. In fact I'll say there is UNLESS you had the motor hooked up when you tested it with the meter.

If the relays are wired for the newer motor simply removing the ground wires from the 87a terminals on the relay sockets "should" make it work for the early motor.

I say "should" because I don't know for sure how it is wired. I assume Serehill wired it in the simple logical way. I suppose there are other ways it could have been done but I'm not going to waste time trying to figger odd ways it might have been done.

If you want to post some pichers showing the wires going into the relays it would help those trying to diagnose it.
Sic friatur crustulum

'84 GW with Nissan SD33T, early Chev NV4500, 300, narrowed Ford reverse 44, narrowed Ford 60, SOA/reversed shackle in fornt, lowered mount/flipped shackle in rear.
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Re: Serehill's Tailgate relay diagram

Post by turtlehead »

SJTD wrote:
turtlehead wrote:
babywag wrote:
But you still haven't answered about how you had things wired up for your test with the meter. Still might be a problem with the wiring. In fact I'll say there is UNLESS you had the motor hooked up when you tested it with the meter.

If the relays are wired for the newer motor simply removing the ground wires from the 87a terminals on the relay sockets "should" make it work for the early motor.

I say "should" because I don't know for sure how it is wired. I assume Serehill wired it in the simple logical way. I suppose there are other ways it could have been done but I'm not going to waste time trying to figger odd ways it might have been done.

If you want to post some pichers showing the wires going into the relays it would help those trying to diagnose it.
Ok, for the test with my meter, I have no idea how to properly do that, I just shoved the pointy things into the wires that I had running to the motor and hit the switch to see if I was getting 12v

I like the idea of disconnecting wires from the 87a solving it all

I will take photos tomorrow and post of the other side of the wiring going into the relays.
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Re: Serehill's Tailgate relay diagram

Post by SJTD »

To test the relay system you need the motor disconnected and check the voltage between the two motor terminals on the strip.

Based on the experience of the others you need another motor but you can test your motors by connecting the case to the negative and connecting the positive to one or the other of the motor terminals at a time.
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Re: Serehill's Tailgate relay diagram

Post by will e »

If you post up a pic of your multi-meter I can help tell you what setting it should be on and how to test if your relay system is working as expected.

Like SJTD said, testing the motor is easy. Two wires directly from the battery. Hold or tape the negative wire to a metal spot on the motor case.

Take the positive wire and touch one of the two terminals, then the other, and see if the motor operates in either direction.
81 Waggy 'WILL E' Retired
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turtlehead
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Re: Serehill's Tailgate relay diagram

Post by turtlehead »

will e wrote:If you post up a pic of your multi-meter I can help tell you what setting it should be on and how to test if your relay system is working as expected.

Like SJTD said, testing the motor is easy. Two wires directly from the battery. Hold or tape the negative wire to a metal spot on the motor case.

Take the positive wire and touch one of the two terminals, then the other, and see if the motor operates in either direction.
Awesome... I'll try and post photos of the meter tonight.

For the motor test.. I have a new motor in hand (got a replacement for the second one I fried) Should I test this new motor just to see if that's how it works? or was this more just to see if the motor was busted or not?
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Re: Serehill's Tailgate relay diagram

Post by will e »

You should be able to test the new motor using the instructions above. 'ground' the body and move a positive powered wire from one terminal to the other. I would not hook it up yet until we know what your switches are doing and if we need to modify them. You can then verify it they are working as expected with the meter before hooking up the motor.

If you have the model number of the multimeter I should be able to look that up as well.
81 Waggy 'WILL E' Retired
82 Cherokee WT - SOA/SF/high steer/Alcan springs/agr box/Borgeson steering shaft/AMC 401/performer/holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS (2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave, Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37X12.5/Corbeau XRS Baja & 5 point retractable harness/Hella Aux lights/tuffy console/killer32 sliders/Evil Twin bumpers, rack and roll cage/WARN 8000/TT Fabworks steering brace/dual batts/custom TC skid plate/ARB fridge
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Re: Serehill's Tailgate relay diagram

Post by dodgerammit »

SJTD wrote:
If the relays are wired for the newer motor simply removing the ground wires from the 87a terminals on the relay sockets "should" make it work for the early motor.

I say "should" because I don't know for sure how it is wired. I assume Serehill wired it in the simple logical way. I suppose there are other ways it could have been done but I'm not going to waste time trying to figger odd ways it might have been done.

My thinking as well. According to the schematics I drew up, this is the way he wired the relays:
87 received 12v.
87a ground
30 output to up/down motor control
85/86 switched control/ground

Looking at turtlehead's pics, this is the way serehill wired his. With one caveat. Serehill directly linked the 85/86 ground to the 87a with a jumper, then ran a ground from 87a (center terminal) to the terminal block( piece with all of the screw connectors). So, turtle would need to separate the jumper and ground it to the terminal block and disconnect the ground lead to the center of the relay connector.

But yes, test your most recent motor and confirm it is an old style. Then, We'll try to sort out the relay bits.
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red/3M Ebony Metallic woodgrain, with honey interior) AMC 360 :cry: 2004 4.8LS/Advance Adapter/727/242 D44/AMC20 Serehill tailgate and headlight harnesses :fsj: Ongoing thread-viewtopic.php?t=11897

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turtlehead
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Re: Serehill's Tailgate relay diagram

Post by turtlehead »

Ok.. here's the pics I promised - wiring an then the multimeter:
https://timhalberg.com/waggywiring/

Let me know if it's easier if I embed the pics in this post
1972 Wagoneer
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1986 Dodge W100 Axles
Random brake parts...
1967 Buick 340 engine
SOA swap with some questionable install parts
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Re: Serehill's Tailgate relay diagram

Post by turtlehead »

I grabbed the multimeter and figured it out on how to test for continuity and did that was a test on the window motor with it just sitting on a cardboard box (not installed in the jeep) and the two wire connectors on the motor have continuity.

Not sure what that means, but - the multimeter makes the noise.
1972 Wagoneer
filthy mods by previous owner:
1986 Dodge W100 Axles
Random brake parts...
1967 Buick 340 engine
SOA swap with some questionable install parts
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