Any Completed 4.0 Swaps Running Around?

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Nikkormat
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Re: Any Completed 4.0 Swaps Running Around?

Post by Nikkormat »

Cecil14 wrote:I'm running a stroked 4.0L in my J-10. I didn't do it to get better mileage, I see around 14ish when I finally make it through a tank of fuel, which is rare anymore.

My truck already had a 258, so it really wasn't much of a swap engine-wise. All the mounts are the same externally on the earlier (at least pre-'96) blocks as are the bellhousings. I went with an NV3550 out of a 2000 TJ and I have a D300 behind that right now. My fuel tank is the 42 gal suburban tank where the spare tire normally goes.

Hardest part for me was the wiring, and even that really wasn't difficult. I'm running the ~'90-96 HO MPFI setup. I wouldn't touch a Renix setup with a 10 foot pole. Barely a step ahead of a carb and parts are far less available.

If you can get all the parts for free to reasonable cost, do it. I love the I6s. Mine takes a beating and runs great. Super simple and nowhere near the multitude of little problems the V8s have had over the years. Plus there's still a HUGE parts availability for the I6s, having been run into the early 2000s.


aa
Thanks for chiming in, I'm assuming you had to move that gas tank because of the length of the whole setup? Do you think you'd be able to hit higher mileage numbers with deeper gears? Or less cubic inches?
Gabe, "reformed" Jeep hoarder.

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Nikkormat
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Re: Any Completed 4.0 Swaps Running Around?

Post by Nikkormat »

Stuka wrote:
Nikkormat wrote:I don't get this whole cost of the swap thing, the jeep needs an engine either way. Due to the work of some dirty SOB the 401 is still at least $1500 away from completion. Redneck rebuilding a spare 360 we have laying around back in CO would probably end up around the same price. If I can spend the same amount and get better gas milage (and unfortunately less power) I don't see what all the ruckus is about.
Well you figure int he cost of the engine, mounts, trans, t-case, both drive shafts, plus all the little nickel and dime stuff. It will be cheaper to put the same engine in.
Alright you got me on the driveshafts, that's $500 or more I didn't figure in.
Gabe, "reformed" Jeep hoarder.

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Nikkormat
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Re: Any Completed 4.0 Swaps Running Around?

Post by Nikkormat »

REDONE wrote:
Nikkormat wrote: I don't see what all the ruckus is about.
The ruckus is because you're too smart and have too much experience to do something as dumb as replacing an obsolete gas guzzling turd with an even WEAKER obsolete gas guzzling turd. You know the saying "round peg in a square hole?" It's like that, only instead of wooden pegs, you're using different shapes of turds. :mrgreen:

I don't like the "Slippery slope" logical fallacy, but it's real easy to see how this approach leads to your FSJ getting towed in the middle of a project when you're too broke to get it out of impound. You'll feel like a victim, but you'd only be a victim of your own decisions. Seriously, park that sucker and get a beater until you have the time and MONEY to screw around with it, college kid! You should be studying, not screwing around with Jeeps, anyways!
It is parked, way back in Colorado. After the whole engine debacle it was cheaper to throw the transmission I picked up in Ouray in the Cherokee and steal the fuel system I bought for the new engine away from that parts pile to get rid of the TBI. I threw the transmission in it, swapped it back to a carburetor and a mechanical fuel pump, drove it for a week, and then took it all the way up here.

Here's the deal, if the majority of you say it's a bad idea I'm not going to do it. If I didn't care about the groups opinion I wouldn't have asked. But I still think the whole cost concern is unfounded. Admittedly I didn't think of the driveshafts but I'd be starting from scratch with another 360, or spending $1500 at the very least to finish the stupid 401.

And due to some interesting developments this thing needs to be emissions compliant eventually. I may find myself in commiefornia dealing with all that fun. So I'm going to have to dump money into a Howell setup for that stupid yellow sticker. And then dump money into tuning the Howell setup because I just know it's not going to run right or have enough air flow to support the 401. Which means finding a 454 throttle body, buying an APU1, setting up a tuning laptop... and pulling my hair out for weeks until it runs good enough to not worry about.

The main reason for not doing the swap now (besides the cries of no from the group) is the whole smog thing. I'm pretty sure a smog referee would turn their nose up at a something with less cylinders and less pollution controls.

As for buying some other sort of hoopty, hell no. The path I've gone down I'm going to be living out of my car for a while doing temporary low paying jobs to build up experience before grad school; only some of which will have some sort of housing accommodation. Sometimes I'll be sleeping in the jeep, some times in a crappy travel trailer next to the jeep provided by some state agency, sometimes in the jeep way back in the sticks to be close to a study area, sometimes it'll be parked for a month while I camp back in somewhere un accessible. Don't get me wrong this isn't a complaint. This is exactly what I wanted. That sounds like good fun. But I don't want to be doing that all in some soulless Toyota. Or some van to give people that "he lives in a van down by the river" stigma. I want to do it in a full size Jeep.

I wouldn't be where I am today if I hadn't bought that stupid beat up Cherokee and ended up on this site. You all reminded me what a sense of community was. Do you think if I had bought a beat up 4 runner and shown up to the FJ summit I would have been welcomed into their fruity little club the same way? Heck no! I highly doubt that they or anybody else would have given me the same wrenching, wheeling, sitting around a campfire education that this group did. Without you guys I would have probably just kept going down the engineering path working my way towards a boring life behind a desk making other people's dreams become a reality. No offense to anyone doing that, I just think I wouldn't have been happy doing that forever. If I hadn't hooked up with this group I probably would have kept slogging through school regardless of my unrecoverable GPA and ended up in a situation where I couldn't get into college. Who knows where I would have gone from there. Likely nowhere fast.

I spent a long time trying to put into words how much the community here has helped me get where I am, happy and going somewhere I'm excited about, and how I wouldn't have met the people I've met outside of the community here without my FSJ's. But I couldn't. FSJ's are too big a part of my life to give it up. And I'm sure there will be more opportunities in the future I wouldn't have had without being in a FSJ.

Heck Wyatt probably wouldn't have rediscovered his childhood love of mines and mining without us jeeping back into the hills after you guys got me hooked on 4 wheeling.




I cut three paragraphs out of this that just got too sappy. I can only have one car for a long while in the near future and it will be a full size jeep. That may be stupid and irresponsible, but I'll be happy. Even if that means I'll have to spend $2600 dollars in gas to go on some grand Alaskan adventure.
Gabe, "reformed" Jeep hoarder.

Pathkiller
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Re: Any Completed 4.0 Swaps Running Around?

Post by Pathkiller »

I have completed this swap twice now. The first was in my 74 CJ5, and the second was in a 1980 J10. In both cases I used the 91-95 OBD I version of the 4.0L with a YJ wiring harness. I got used harnesses from Ebay and thinned them myself. The wiring diagrams are on Autozone's website. This swap is incredibly simple. There are honestly only about 4 wiring connections to be made. Everything else is plug and play. Just a matter of buying all the sensors you need. Easier if you get an entire wrecked vehicle to pull from.

In the J10 I replaced a 258, so it was very simple. The engine mounts are identical. Just use the 258 mounts on the 4.0L block. Just be aware that one block bolt hole is a 12mm metric fine thread, and needs a unique bolt. All the rest are common SAE size.

The accessory drive takes some figuring, as the XJ, YJ and ZJ versions all used different fans and belt routings. I mixed and matched to get an engine driven fan like a YJ (the XJ uses an electric fan).

I haven't driven the truck enough yet to tell what kind of mileage it will get. But my CJ is averaging about 19mpg on the highway with 3.73 gears and a 4-speed manual T-176 with 1:1 4th gear. The J10 is using a TF727.

Don't be afraid of this swap. It's incredibly easy and used 4.0L engines are very common and cheap. I am very pleased with both of my swaps and would do it again in a heartbeat.
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Cecil14
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Re: Any Completed 4.0 Swaps Running Around?

Post by Cecil14 »

Nikkormat wrote:Thanks for chiming in, I'm assuming you had to move that gas tank because of the length of the whole setup? Do you think you'd be able to hit higher mileage numbers with deeper gears? Or less cubic inches?
Nope, didn't *have* to move the tank at all. I had switched to the suburban tank a long time ago as I wanted more than 200 miles driving range. In fact, I believe my current setup is shorter than stock, if anything. The D300 I have is a short tail (just happened to be the one I found used). The trucks don't have a lot of the interference issues the wags and cheros do with tanks.

I'm sure I'd get better mileage if I did a lot of things: dropped to stock tires, bump the compression from 8.5:1 to at least 9.5:1, fix the body so panels aren't flapping in the breeze, etc. etc.

I didn't build my truck for mileage, I have a diesel Jetta for that. I use my truck as a truck, it hauls things when I need it and sits in the driveway the rest of the time.


aa
1983 J-10 - 4.6L(MPFI)/CS130D/Hydroboost/NV3550/D300/44/44/3.54/Disc-Disc/32s/42 gallon 'burb tank
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Stuka
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Re: Any Completed 4.0 Swaps Running Around?

Post by Stuka »

The tank only has to be moved if you want to use the QT with low range. As the low range unit sticks way out the back of the t-case compared to a normal t-case.
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Re: Any Completed 4.0 Swaps Running Around?

Post by KJ Ryu »

I know where there is a 401, already built, sitting in a VERY rusty Chief. The owner is asking $2500. And it's between you and CO.
Ron

2005 KJ, Hit-n-Run, 2am 6-17-2012, Totaled. :mad:
1977 SJ J10, 4v360, T18, D20, 37x14s, SOA & SF on tons, still ugly.
1978 SJ Wagoneer, 4v360, QT, 33x12.5s, lift by Sawzall :-bd NOT Running :(
1977 SJ J10, SniperEFI 401, QT, D44s, 31X10.5s :fsj:
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Re: Any Completed 4.0 Swaps Running Around?

Post by KJ Ryu »

He may even have a separate 401 he'd be willing to part with but, I'm pretty sure he would have let me know, if he did.
Ron

2005 KJ, Hit-n-Run, 2am 6-17-2012, Totaled. :mad:
1977 SJ J10, 4v360, T18, D20, 37x14s, SOA & SF on tons, still ugly.
1978 SJ Wagoneer, 4v360, QT, 33x12.5s, lift by Sawzall :-bd NOT Running :(
1977 SJ J10, SniperEFI 401, QT, D44s, 31X10.5s :fsj:
2006 KJ
Mars wrote:One man's trans leak is another's penetrating oil :D
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Re: Any Completed 4.0 Swaps Running Around?

Post by fulsizjeep »

Stuka wrote:The tank only has to be moved if you want to use the QT with low range. As the low range unit sticks way out the back of the t-case compared to a normal t-case.
"Normal" is a setting on the cloths washer. :P
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tgreese
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Re: Any Completed 4.0 Swaps Running Around?

Post by tgreese »

Just a comment ... there are a lot of 4.0L HO WJs out there ... Jeep sold a lot of them, and they are similar size and capability to a Wagoneer. The WJ is the last of the F/R live axle GCs, and they were made 1999-2004. So, considerably newer, the engine that you want, and 20ish MPG on a good day. If you want a project, the 4.0L GCs can have cracked heads or worn-out 42RE transmission. Plenty of opportunities to get a fixable one really cheap, and be in a better position than with your Wagoneer. If this sounds appealing, JeepForum has a buyer's guide here - http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f310/ult ... de-1271979
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The PIG Smith
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Re: Any Completed 4.0 Swaps Running Around?

Post by The PIG Smith »

My very first FSJ was a 1982 Wagoneer Limited with a 258 I6.
It's performance for daily driver, Mom-Bus types of duties was rather poor.

IMHO, a slightly modified 360 V8 can equal the fuel economy of a stock 258 I6.
Additionally, a slightly modified 4.0L I6 can out perform a stock 360 V8.
Bryan Smith
Fort Wayne, Indiana
2017 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited
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1986 Jeep J20
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1982 Jeep J10
- Has become a Long Term Project.
1981 Jeep J20
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1987 Jeep J20 Pioneer
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The PIG Smith
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Re: Any Completed 4.0 Swaps Running Around?

Post by The PIG Smith »

tgreese wrote:Just a comment ... there are a lot of 4.0L HO WJs out there ... Jeep sold a lot of them, and they are similar size and capability to a Wagoneer. The WJ is the last of the F/R live axle GCs, and they were made 1999-2004.
I owned a 4.0L powered '99 WJ Limited that was my DD for years.
That rig took me a lot of places and racked up aboout 240K on the clock.
Its 4.0L is still running strong, but the rest of the rig was tired and used up.
Yes, I babied it, but its 42RE really getting soft.
With the exception of the HAVC system, WJ's are strong solid vehicles.
When I decided to replace mine, I was looking for a late model WJ, like an '03 or '04.
I wanted the newest, lowest mileage, cleanest and best WJ I can find.
As fate seem to always seems to deal me a hand that I have never seen before, I stumbled onto a high mileage WK Limited powered by a 5.7 HEMI for cheap.
Well, I could not pass that up and now I am addicted to that 335 horsepower.

Here is a another very resource for the WJ
http://www.wjjeeps.com/
Bryan Smith
Fort Wayne, Indiana
2017 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited
- 75th Anniversary Edition - 1941 Trim Package - Recon Green --Daily Driver
1986 Jeep J20
- Super clean rig from the AZ/CA state line -- Current Project
1982 Jeep J10
- Has become a Long Term Project.
1981 Jeep J20
- Commercial flat bed - Lost in a Divorce --gone
1987 Jeep J20 Pioneer
- Former Rick Bielec aka Ricbee plow rig. Major rust!! --gone

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backroadin'
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Re: Any Completed 4.0 Swaps Running Around?

Post by backroadin' »

I built a low buck stroker from a renix based 4.0 and put it in my Wagoneer that had a 258 in it. I run a quadrajet since I didn't want to mess with/learn the wiring aspect - and it allows me to run higher compression without worrying about the knock/timing issues. I started out with a Motorcraft 2bbl on a slightly modified yj 258 intake manifold, and it was decent. Switched to a quadrajet on an Offy dualport and got about 20mpg on a road trip with 32" BFG A/T's. Made the same trip with 33" muds and got about 16ish. (Adjusted for tire size.) I have manual hubs and a 4spd stick. No overdrive. Power is great for what it is.
Don't rule out a carb setup if you can get the renix motor for free or dirt cheap.
As far as the driveshafts, you shouldn't need to spend 500 bucks. Search this forum and ifsja for driveshaft lengths - 258 rigs should be pretty close to what you'll need - and shortening driveshafts is cheaper than lengthening. If you gotta make one longer, I'd search for a used one that is what you need or needs to be shortened. Find a good welder/machinist guy and you won't have to spend big coin to get them balanced. I've had at least 3 shafts shortened and not balanced without an issue, but the guy uses a lathe and is a pretty decent machinist too. I think I paid 50 bucks for the last one. YMMV.
Frame horns - I think you need ones from a 258 rig and get them welded on. Search junkyards or post in the wanted ads here and ifsja. Get the motor mounts that bolt to the block for a 258 as well, the bosses for them are in the 4.0 block..... with the exception of I think the left side - one of the bolt holes is bigger and is used for the knock sensor. It's a large fine thread metric. Since I didn't need the knock sensor, it was an easy fix.
If you're handy with a wrench, any other issues you encounter should be easy enough to identify and overcome. Lots of info on swaps around the net, and even though most swap out 258's for 360's, that info could still be useful in a reverse-engineering sorta way.
Tranny bolt patterns are the same, but you probably already knew that.
You can always shave the head a bit (10 or 20 thou) and get a thinner head gasket for a small bump in compression, though I don't know how much performance you'd actually gain. What tires are you going to run? That, how high or low it sits, and what tranny/tcase will all have an affect on mileage. Mud tires, lifted, and a quadratrac is probably not the best combo for mpg's! :)

I don't think you'll be dissapointed with the power from a 4.0 as long as drag racing isn't on your agenda. Since you gotta lay out some coin for a motor swap or rebuild anyway, the 4.0 is an option worth looking at IMO. If you gotta pay a bit for the renix motor, I'd look into a 91-99 motor instead - if you go with FI, the system is better for parts support, and the knock sensor isn't in one of the motor mount holes (I think...) But the power numbers aren't any better really - torque is the same and actually peaks at a lower rpm in the renix as does the hp, which is only like 8 less or something than the HO. More useable in a heavy rig IMO. I think it's due to the stock cam timing.
'73 Wagoneer 4.0 stroker/t176/d300, offy dualport w/ quadrajet
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backroadin'
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Re: Any Completed 4.0 Swaps Running Around?

Post by backroadin' »

Oh, and if you go carb, a 258 distributor will drop in. I run a pertronix unit in my original '73 dizzy in the stroker. For carb swap info on the 4.0, search 4.0 head swaps on here, ifsja, and various cj forums. Most swap to the MPFI, but some folks who do that swap on their 258's elect to keep the carb. There's some modifying of the intake and some bracketry issues that need to be addressed, but nothing major. If it's a serpentine belt setup on the 4.0 it's a little trickier. I don't know if anyone has ever put an adapter onto the renix intake and run a carb - not sure how that would work. You could do a junkyard TBI setup on it though - if you really wanna get into it deep! :)
As mentioned, jeepstrokers website has some info as well, a few of those guys are running carbs.
'73 Wagoneer 4.0 stroker/t176/d300, offy dualport w/ quadrajet
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Cecil14
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Re: Any Completed 4.0 Swaps Running Around?

Post by Cecil14 »

There's absolutely no reason to even consider a TBI setup on a 258 or 4.0L with the mountains of used factory MPFI setups available. The '91-'95 OBDI setups do not use a knock sensor (that I've ever seen), and are insanely easy to set up. There's literally 4-5 wires to hook up and you're done. The only big thing you need to worry about is the fuel pump, you need one that'll put out at least 45psi.

I ran a carb on my first stroker and still can't believe I bothered. It was more work putting a carb on a 4.0L head than the FI. That's seriously how easy the FI setup is.


aa
1983 J-10 - 4.6L(MPFI)/CS130D/Hydroboost/NV3550/D300/44/44/3.54/Disc-Disc/32s/42 gallon 'burb tank
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backroadin'
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Re: Any Completed 4.0 Swaps Running Around?

Post by backroadin' »

Good point.... I was thinking of a way around the renix setup, but I guess an MPFI intake would bolt up to a renix head without any trouble?
One of these days I should face my wiring fears and take the plunge and try to hook up an FI system. :)
'73 Wagoneer 4.0 stroker/t176/d300, offy dualport w/ quadrajet
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Cecil14
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Re: Any Completed 4.0 Swaps Running Around?

Post by Cecil14 »

I know they changed the head from Renix to HO, but I'm not sure if it's enough that you can't make an HO manifold fit or not. You could always swap heads, but if you've got any kind of investment into your Renix head or a questionably worn bottom end that's probably not the best plan.

I've got my wiring notes around here somewhere...they're not spectacular, but anyone that wants them is more than welcome to em. I do plan on going back through my wiring here real soon. I've got some other problems I need to address, and I want to upgrade some things as well. If I can get the motivation together, I want to draw out my wiring in Autocad. Maybe with a few beers...


aa
1983 J-10 - 4.6L(MPFI)/CS130D/Hydroboost/NV3550/D300/44/44/3.54/Disc-Disc/32s/42 gallon 'burb tank
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backroadin'
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Re: Any Completed 4.0 Swaps Running Around?

Post by backroadin' »

Mmmm.... beer......
'73 Wagoneer 4.0 stroker/t176/d300, offy dualport w/ quadrajet

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Nikkormat
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Re: Any Completed 4.0 Swaps Running Around?

Post by Nikkormat »

I just remembered there was a fellow in Ouray this year with a TJ drivetrain in a four door Cherokee! If I recall he got 17 or 18 on the way up from new mexico.

He comes into frame at 2:12 in this video: https://youtu.be/mb5Rnu95FiU

It was shackle reverse up front, blocks in the rear, trimming and 33x10.5's
Gabe, "reformed" Jeep hoarder.

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Re: Any Completed 4.0 Swaps Running Around?

Post by candymancan »

Our 4.0 in the 98 ZJ got 21mpg from the tank when we drove 18 hours to Georgia from northern VA. In the city its about 14mpg or so. Depends on who drives it. My mom tends to be more lead on the pedal then me.

Trust me the difference from my 5.9 ZJ and that 4.0 is pretty big on the freeway.. I get 17-18mpg if im lucky on the 5.9 ZJ and i have to fill up after 300-320 miles. The 4.0 can go 400+, The wagoneer is terrible on gas. Full tank of gas, i drove 30 miles to frederickburg, had a little bit of traffic for the last 15-20 min or so. The return trip of 30 miles no traffic, 60 miles total when i got back home i had just a tad over half a tank of gas... Thats just so terrible lol.

So i never drive my wagoneer anywhere far unless i have the mulla to fill it up. Otherwise i drive my 5.9 ZJ.. 10mpg to 17mpg is a huge difference. and 17mpg to 21mpg is huge as well. You deff notice it.

The 4.0 though is nicknamed the 4.0 slow for a reason, when you step on the gas on the freeway it has no passing power. 185hp and 225ft lbs of torque.. The ZJ is 3800lbs. with a 4400 lbs wagoneer i dunno. If you do get a 4.0 get one from the 98 and under years. The 99+ had defects in the head and are known to crack. The later 4.0's were pretty trashy

This is the head casting numbers

87-90 : 2686
91-93 : 7119 or 7120 (the 7120 is the better of the two and was put on in late 91 through 93)
94-95 : I have no listing
96-98 : 0630
99-01 : 0331 (in 2000 they started having issues with the heads cracking
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9L Limited 219k
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0 I6 laredo 430k
1990 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 155k
1976 Jeep J10.. 85k(repaired)
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