HELP. No start 360.

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Oak
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:26 pm

HELP. No start 360.

Post by Oak »

All,

I need help. I’m stumped with a no start issue on a fresh rebuild 360. First I apologize in advance for the length of this but I want to give as much info as I can. The past few weekends of troubleshooting have been unsuccessful so I'm turning to the experts.

This is on my 78 Chief. I had the 360 completely rebuilt by a machine shop, during which the builder installed a comp cams XE262, new timing cover, and performer intake. We spun the oil pump on the stand before bringing it home and it made 60 lbs easily on a mechanical gauge.

I re-installed the engine a few weeks later along with a FItech kit and TFI ignition coil, cap, wires and plugs. The jeep started relatively quickly, with only 1 quick adjustment of the distributor, and ran it for 25 minutes at 2000-2200 rpm to break the cam in. I used 10W-30 with a bottle of Lucas ZDDP.

The jeep seemed to run well during break-in though maybe rich..?

The factory oil pressure gauge on the dash was reading 25-30 psi starting out cold which I assumed was inaccurate since I witnessed good pressures on a mechanical gauge a few weeks earlier at the shop. I did prime the pump again before reinstalling the motor. As the engine warmed up the pressures dropped to 15-20 psi at 2000 rpm (again on the dash gauge). This may or may not be important later as now I’m worried my issues may be cam related…

So after break-in I took my foot off the gas and the jeep died. I got it restarted at idle and put a timing light on it and discovered the timing was way advanced and the mark was not visible; the distributor hold down clamp bolt was tight but the distributor still moved fairly easily... turns out you really have to crank down on the bolt with the new timing cover. I then adjusted the timing at idle down to 10-12* and it seemed to smooth out right before it died.

I’m not sure if this contributed to rich mixture. All vac ports on new manifold are plugged except PCV.

I tried to restart it again and the battery didn’t have enough juice to kick it over which was odd. I put a charger on it for a bit and it would crank but not fire.

So that was the last time it ran several weeks ago during break-in. Trying to start it ever since while trouble shooting and it seems like a timing issue. Backfiring/coughing/spitting while cranking.

Reset timing to TDC on compression stroke. Did the normal checks for fuel and spark. Verified spark with inline spark tester and tested TFI coil. All checked out.

I put a fuel pressure gauge on the FItech inlet and it reads 50psi with the key on. The FItech website states 58 psi is needed but I don’t know if 8 psi would contribute to no start. There’s definitely fuel getting into the intake and cylinders. The primeshot on the FItech is happening as well.

I discovered last weekend that the rotor that came with the TFI distributor cap had the plastic “key” sheared off so the rotor could spin on the distributor shaft. We thought we had solved the no start/timing issue right then, but after replacing the rotor, taking it to TDC again, the engine still would not fire. Again smelled fuel and saw spark. As we tried different distributor positions, the engine continued to cough through the throttle body. Even had a small campfire in the throttle body once or twice. :shock:

I then pulled the spark plugs which were fouled (black / wet), cleaned them and retried with no luck. The set was "new" and only had the 25 minutes run time and several minutes of cranking while troubleshooting. I eventually replaced the plugs again and still no luck.

I pulled the 02 sensor today and it was also dark/sooty.

Ran a compression test on all cylinders for kicks and all 8 are between 150-160psi. Wasn’t sure if this might give me an idea on cam health.

I drained the oil today and it’s dark. Like dark gray black dark, which I assume is either from it running rich or assembly lube/ cam grease or both. I replaced the filter and refilled with new oil. I screened the oil and found one small metal shard.

What am I missing? Is my cam dead? Will worn lobes cause an engine to not start? Can this be verified without taking the engine apart?

Will 8 psi fuel shortage cause no start?

Any help is greatly appreciated. Trying not to burn this thing to the ground after building it for the past umpteen years. :banghead: Thanks.
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az chip
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Re: HELP. No start 360.

Post by az chip »

Welcome oak. I am not sure if the 8 psi matters. You have a lot going on there. I don't know what you are supposed to do. But I know what I would do. I would get in touch with the engine builder and bring him in to the problem. Where did all the parts come from? You or the builder? If it was me I might get a different stock distributor and try with that. Does the FI tech control timing? Figure out what is wrong with the fuel pressure. I think you know your problems. You might also try this question in the Fuel Injection area of the forum.
'81 Cherokee Chief 81 WT Chief/MSD 6/Holley Sniper/ Rusty 4" Spring lift/ Bulltear oil adapter/K&P Engineering Oil Filter/ NP 208/ Serehill Light Harness/KC LED Headlights/ Evil Twin Fab Roof Rack and sliders/ Ross mirror mounts.

ShagWagon
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Re: HELP. No start 360.

Post by ShagWagon »

Did you check for spark to your plugs? After the distributor? Or just spark to the distributor?
87 Grand Wagoneer Rebuilt 360 by S&J, Fitech GO EFI 600, Novak in-tank fuel pump, Skyjacker Hydro 4" lift, BFG AT KO2 30", Dynamax Muffler, MSD distributor, MSD ignition, Edlebrock perf 4bbl intake, Elgin perf cam, Oil tube mod, Roller rockers, chrome molly lifters, HD alum radiator, Powermaster 150/100 alt, Alum HD water pump, Serhills tailgate harness, Cowl screen mod, Evil Twin grab handles, Rstep's custom AMC door lock knobs, all electrical works.
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Tatsadasayago
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Re: HELP. No start 360.

Post by Tatsadasayago »

Hello and welcome Oak.
A couple things jumped out at me regarding your problem.
First, timing being all over the place. I would ask which timing set as well as the camshaft and distributor drive gears were used. You might want to pull the dizzy and inspect the drive gear because it sounds to me like they may be chewed up...something that is very common.
The other thing is the battery voltage being down, especially after a 30 minute break-in. It's possible that this is a contributor since most closed loop EFI systems are very dependent on proper voltages. If the sensors aren't getting the right voltages, the feedback they send to the processor will be wrong and it will change injector duty cycle/pulse width, timing and so forth.

[EDIT] The rotor clocking key should never experience enough resistance that it is sheared off. I would suggest you inspect the cap and look for hard rotor contact at the plug wire contacts. It could be that your distributor shaft has tried to 'walk' out of the timing cover...which leads back to the drive gears or a possibly out of spec distributor assembly or shaft.

Please let us know and there are many here who know their stuff and can help you.

Jim
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
A collection of parts flying in close formation

will e
Posts: 5097
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:21 am

Re: HELP. No start 360.

Post by will e »

Welcome!
Pull the cap and watch the rotor turn.
Then double check that you are on TDC of the compression stroke. With all of the messing around it's possible you are 180 off.
If that doesn't solve your problem pull the distributor and do the other checks that Tats suggested.
81 Waggy 'WILL E' Retired
82 Cherokee WT - SOA/SF/high steer/Alcan springs/agr box/Borgeson steering shaft/AMC 401/performer/holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS (2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave, Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37X12.5/Corbeau XRS Baja & 5 point retractable harness/Hella Aux lights/tuffy console/killer32 sliders/Evil Twin bumpers, rack and roll cage/WARN 8000/TT Fabworks steering brace/dual batts/custom TC skid plate/ARB fridge
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Oak
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Re: HELP. No start 360.

Post by Oak »

Thanks everyone for the welcome and feedback so far!
az chip wrote:Welcome oak. I am not sure if the 8 psi matters. You have a lot going on there. I don't know what you are supposed to do. But I know what I would do. I would get in touch with the engine builder and bring him in to the problem. Where did all the parts come from? You or the builder? If it was me I might get a different stock distributor and try with that. Does the FI tech control timing? Figure out what is wrong with the fuel pressure. I think you know your problems. You might also try this question in the Fuel Injection area of the forum.
I will definitely call the builder this week. I didn't provide the parts except for the intake manifold, so those are good questions to ask. I know he got the timing cover from EngineQuest. I wish I had suggested bulltear early on but hopefully it's not part of the problem.

I got the 600hp Fitech unit to eventually control timing but I'm not utilizing it yet.


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Oak
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Re: HELP. No start 360.

Post by Oak »

ShagWagon wrote:Did you check for spark to your plugs? After the distributor? Or just spark to the distributor?
Thanks, getting fire to the 4 plugs I checked.
Tatsadasayago wrote:Hello and welcome Oak.
A couple things jumped out at me regarding your problem.
First, timing being all over the place. I would ask which timing set as well as the camshaft and distributor drive gears were used. You might want to pull the dizzy and inspect the drive gear because it sounds to me like they may be chewed up...something that is very common.
The other thing is the battery voltage being down, especially after a 30 minute break-in. It's possible that this is a contributor since most closed loop EFI systems are very dependent on proper voltages. If the sensors aren't getting the right voltages, the feedback they send to the processor will be wrong and it will change injector duty cycle/pulse width, timing and so forth.

[EDIT] The rotor clocking key should never experience enough resistance that it is sheared off. I would suggest you inspect the cap and look for hard rotor contact at the plug wire contacts. It could be that your distributor shaft has tried to 'walk' out of the timing cover...which leads back to the drive gears or a possibly out of spec distributor assembly or shaft.

Please let us know and there are many here who know their stuff and can help you.

Jim
The dizzy gear looks good. I didn't ask whether he re-used the previous cam gear but good question to ask.

The low batt voltage issue surprised me when I tried to restart it the 2nd time it died. It was idling for a couple minutes while adjusting the timing so maybe the alt wasn't charging at low rpm but enough at high rpm to keep it running during break in...?

The engine shut down pretty abruptly like maybe the efi lost juice. It shut down right as the timing adjustments seemed to smooth it out. Can't help but wonder now if it messed something up in the computer.

Checked voltage to the efi later after full charge and it's getting 12+ . I bought a battery tender for it last week so it stays charged.

I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary on the cap when we discovered the bad rotor. I did replace the cap anyway.


will e wrote:Welcome!
Pull the cap and watch the rotor turn.
Then double check that you are on TDC of the compression stroke. With all of the messing around it's possible you are 180 off.
If that doesn't solve your problem pull the distributor and do the other checks that Tats suggested.
Good thought! The rotor is pointed the same direction as when it ran (toward the front). I pulled the dizzy to check the drive gear while at TDC and made sure it went back in the same way.

Thanks all for the input. I'll also call fitech this week with the fuel pressure question, though I wasn't impressed when I spoke with their tech support previously.



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will e
Posts: 5097
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:21 am

Re: HELP. No start 360.

Post by will e »

If you are concerned about the fitech then shoot some starting fluid down the throttle body. Crank the engine and see if it runs for a few seconds. If it does, you have a fuel issue.
81 Waggy 'WILL E' Retired
82 Cherokee WT - SOA/SF/high steer/Alcan springs/agr box/Borgeson steering shaft/AMC 401/performer/holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS (2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave, Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37X12.5/Corbeau XRS Baja & 5 point retractable harness/Hella Aux lights/tuffy console/killer32 sliders/Evil Twin bumpers, rack and roll cage/WARN 8000/TT Fabworks steering brace/dual batts/custom TC skid plate/ARB fridge
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az chip
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Re: HELP. No start 360.

Post by az chip »

will e wrote:If you are concerned about the fitech then shoot some starting fluid down the throttle body. Crank the engine and see if it runs for a few seconds. If it does, you have a fuel issue.
Another good idea.
'81 Cherokee Chief 81 WT Chief/MSD 6/Holley Sniper/ Rusty 4" Spring lift/ Bulltear oil adapter/K&P Engineering Oil Filter/ NP 208/ Serehill Light Harness/KC LED Headlights/ Evil Twin Fab Roof Rack and sliders/ Ross mirror mounts.

ShagWagon
Posts: 702
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Re: HELP. No start 360.

Post by ShagWagon »

I spoke to the tech at fitech once too. Just once.....

He seemed like the most overwhelmed customer service rep in America who had no solution whatsoever. But he was a human from America so I cut him some slack.
87 Grand Wagoneer Rebuilt 360 by S&J, Fitech GO EFI 600, Novak in-tank fuel pump, Skyjacker Hydro 4" lift, BFG AT KO2 30", Dynamax Muffler, MSD distributor, MSD ignition, Edlebrock perf 4bbl intake, Elgin perf cam, Oil tube mod, Roller rockers, chrome molly lifters, HD alum radiator, Powermaster 150/100 alt, Alum HD water pump, Serhills tailgate harness, Cowl screen mod, Evil Twin grab handles, Rstep's custom AMC door lock knobs, all electrical works.
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68glad
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Re: HELP. No start 360.

Post by 68glad »

Definately not fuel related imo. Coughing, backfiring & "carberator campfires" wouldn't happen.
68 Gladiator- RIP
78 Wagoneer- 401, D60/70, 203/205, 38's, Dual PS pump, Hydroboost, OBA, OBW, bla bla bla.

If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.
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Topic author
Oak
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Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:26 pm

Re: HELP. No start 360.

Post by Oak »

Update:
Finally got it running after several weeks of not being able to work on it.
I'm embarrassed to say the timing was 180 out! Will e nailed it.

I guess it took a few week for my brain to reset and start from the beginning again. The sheared rotor key also threw me off on my early timing troubleshooting.

I took it for about a 30 minute drive and ran rpms all over to work the engine and let the fitech do it's learning thing. It runs smooth but I'm a little surprised at the lack of power. Maybe it's part of the learning curve. Also may need to play with timing some more. I set it at 12* base.
Im worried about the oil pressure however. On cold startup it was reading about 35-40psi at idle and once warm it's closer to 5-10psi at idle and ~20-25psi at 2000rpm. I put a mechanical gauge on it to verify.
This on a fresh oil change after the initial break in using 10w-30.
Thoughts?
Thanks




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