Engine Rebuild Non-Start

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Topic author
GrandW
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Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:19 pm

Engine Rebuild Non-Start

Post by GrandW »

Reading through a bunch of threads on engine starting issues, and came across one that indicates if the distributor is not in the right degree the engine might not run "right". This allowed me to narrow in on the TSM and it all seems to assume the engine starts, but needs to be adjusted.

In terms of the 3 components:
Gas - sprayed starter fluid into the carb, so should have gas there (also unplugged the gas line, and gas is in there)
Air - via the carb, should be good
Spark - checked spark plug 3, and it sparks (didn't check the other 7, but have new spark plugs and new wires)

Question is, since I just rebuilt the engine, would the distributor being off a few degrees cause it to not start at all? I lined up the factory white line, but cylinder 1 likely wasn't TDC. It's my 1st rebuild, only thought is it's sparking at the wrong time.... Just recharged the battery too.

Image
Last edited by GrandW on Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1987 Jeep Grand Wagoneer

weeegoneeer
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Re: Engine Rebuild Non-Start

Post by weeegoneeer »

It will stumble and try to start if you close on timing. Thinking you're probably 180 degrees out - you can tell if you're at TDC by putting a compression gauge on #1 - you'll see pressure when turning the engine by the crank pulley with a breaker bar on the compression stroke. Some other folks probably have some other tips for verifying (like pulling a valve cover and seeing if both valves are closed on #1 when the timing mark is aligned). You don't want to spend too much time cranking it while figuring it out on a fresh rebuild, so it's worth dotting i's and crossing t's.
1984 GW

Topic author
GrandW
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Re: Engine Rebuild Non-Start

Post by GrandW »

weeegoneeer wrote:It will stumble and try to start if you close on timing. Thinking you're probably 180 degrees out - you can tell if you're at TDC by putting a compression gauge on #1 - you'll see pressure when turning the engine by the crank pulley with a breaker bar on the compression stroke. Some other folks probably have some other tips for verifying (like pulling a valve cover and seeing if both valves are closed on #1 when the timing mark is aligned). You don't want to spend too much time cranking it while figuring it out on a fresh rebuild, so it's worth dotting i's and crossing t's.
I think you're right. Followed the TSM guide (C-75 for those interested), aligned 1 to TDC. Aligned the distributor, then turned it 1/8th. Restarted the engine with a bit a starter fluid and now starter fluid mist is being fired back up and out of the carb. :| :shock: :cry:

Spot checked cylinder 2, it's getting spark. Does anything on the dash have to be hooked up? I've got all of that removed. Wouldn't think it does, but I'm running low on ideas.
1987 Jeep Grand Wagoneer

BCRAWLER
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Re: Engine Rebuild Non-Start

Post by BCRAWLER »

Just to clarify, it is not trying to start at all. You have 12 volts on run. Distributor moved to not sure but think12* roughly. Decal in compartment will specify. If you think you are 180* out on install try moving number one wire across cap then follow sequence. Maybe move crank to timing mark and see where rotor is pointing.
1980 Cherokee,360/727/208, propane powered,unknown lift,31' Adventuro's on Chevy rims,Warn winch
1980 J10,360/standard/208, stepside
1970 GMC 4X4 Pickup, 78 frame, 84 350, Turbo 350/205, patina galore
1986 Blazer K5, 350/205/465 trans
1990 Cherokee XJ, about to scrap for FSJ parts, gone to parts graveyard in sky

Topic author
GrandW
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Re: Engine Rebuild Non-Start

Post by GrandW »

BCRAWLER wrote:Just to clarify, it is not trying to start at all. You have 12 volts on run. Distributor moved to not sure but think12* roughly. Decal in compartment will specify. If you think you are 180* out on install try moving number one wire across cap then follow sequence. Maybe move crank to timing mark and see where rotor is pointing.
Thanks. Here's where I'm at. Verified cylinder 1 is on compression stroke by feeling pressure as engine was rotated. Aligned to TDC on pulley and mark on engine. Aligned distributor to cylinder 1 wire, then went 1/8th counter clockwise. Unplugged fuel hose, verified fuel pours out on the engine side of the fuel filter. Spark is getting to both cylinder 1 and 2 (haven't check the rest, but it's all new plugs and wires).

Spraying starter fluid makes it want to start, almost start, but isn't pushing it over the edge to actually start... I'm not sure what to try next.... frustrating to be so close. There's also a bunch of dry rust / carbon that's been pushed out of the exhaust.
1987 Jeep Grand Wagoneer

BCRAWLER
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Location: Vancouver Island,BC

Re: Engine Rebuild Non-Start

Post by BCRAWLER »

4 cycle engine produces pressure on 2 of the strokes, exhaust and compression. Try moving the number one spark wire directly across cap then follow sequence. Quick and easy verication distributor in correctly.
1980 Cherokee,360/727/208, propane powered,unknown lift,31' Adventuro's on Chevy rims,Warn winch
1980 J10,360/standard/208, stepside
1970 GMC 4X4 Pickup, 78 frame, 84 350, Turbo 350/205, patina galore
1986 Blazer K5, 350/205/465 trans
1990 Cherokee XJ, about to scrap for FSJ parts, gone to parts graveyard in sky

Topic author
GrandW
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Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:19 pm

Re: Engine Rebuild Non-Start

Post by GrandW »

BCRAWLER wrote:4 cycle engine produces pressure on 2 of the strokes, exhaust and compression. Try moving the number one spark wire directly across cap then follow sequence. Quick and easy verication distributor in correctly.
Hey, that got a flame a shoot up out of the carburetor.... does that mean now I'm definitely 180 off? Trying to Google and that's what it indicates. So the test worked?

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1987 Jeep Grand Wagoneer

BCRAWLER
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Location: Vancouver Island,BC

Re: Engine Rebuild Non-Start

Post by BCRAWLER »

Figure you are 180 out and maybe off by one or two teeth. Hope this helps. Sparked while intake valve was open.
1980 Cherokee,360/727/208, propane powered,unknown lift,31' Adventuro's on Chevy rims,Warn winch
1980 J10,360/standard/208, stepside
1970 GMC 4X4 Pickup, 78 frame, 84 350, Turbo 350/205, patina galore
1986 Blazer K5, 350/205/465 trans
1990 Cherokee XJ, about to scrap for FSJ parts, gone to parts graveyard in sky

will e
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Re: Engine Rebuild Non-Start

Post by will e »

You are sure you have the firing order correct?

Image

It doesn't matter which terminal 'number 1' is in, just so long as the order of the wires is correct.

Manually move the engine to TDC on the damper, take the cap off and confirm the rotor is pointing to either #1 or #6.

The engine should start even if the timing is off by several degrees.

If after confirming all of this, if the engine doesn't start, try turning the cap a full 180 degrees. Or you can move each wire to it's opposite post if it isn't easy to turn the cap around.
81 Waggy 'WILL E' Retired
82 Cherokee WT - SOA/SF/high steer/Alcan springs/agr box/Borgeson steering shaft/AMC 401/performer/holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS (2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave, Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37X12.5/Corbeau XRS Baja & 5 point retractable harness/Hella Aux lights/tuffy console/killer32 sliders/Evil Twin bumpers, rack and roll cage/WARN 8000/TT Fabworks steering brace/dual batts/custom TC skid plate/ARB fridge

will e
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Re: Engine Rebuild Non-Start

Post by will e »

Buy the way, and it has nothing to do with the starting problem, your power steering and AIR belts are on not installed correctly.
The power steering pump and crank pulley are both on the outer most groove. The AIR pump pulley goes to the inside groove on the PS pump.

The alternator/AC belts are a dual setup, there should be two belts.
81 Waggy 'WILL E' Retired
82 Cherokee WT - SOA/SF/high steer/Alcan springs/agr box/Borgeson steering shaft/AMC 401/performer/holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS (2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave, Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37X12.5/Corbeau XRS Baja & 5 point retractable harness/Hella Aux lights/tuffy console/killer32 sliders/Evil Twin bumpers, rack and roll cage/WARN 8000/TT Fabworks steering brace/dual batts/custom TC skid plate/ARB fridge

Topic author
GrandW
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Re: Engine Rebuild Non-Start

Post by GrandW »

will e wrote:Buy the way, and it has nothing to do with the starting problem, your power steering and AIR belts are on not installed correctly.
The power steering pump and crank pulley are both on the outer most groove. The AIR pump pulley goes to the inside groove on the PS pump.

The alternator/AC belts are a dual setup, there should be two belts.
Okay, thanks, I'll double check those belts. I thought I had used the TSM and some internet sleuthing (pics I used below), but all new to me.

Thanks for the note on the distributor too. I did double check wires, but will go through it all again and try rotating the cap. Thanks!
20180912_180410.jpeg
Screenshot_20190108-195955.jpeg
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kansasboy001
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Re: Engine Rebuild Non-Start

Post by kansasboy001 »

Make sure engine is at tdc. Remove the wires from the distributor cap and remove cap. Look at what terminal the rotor is pointing to and make that #1 and follow the firing order from there. If it still doesn't run you are 180 off and need to swap the #1 plug wire to the terminal directly across from it and then follow the firing order from there.
1983 Cherokee Laredo. 360/ 727/ np228/ Junkyard 7427 TBI/ Msd ignition

BCRAWLER
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Re: Engine Rebuild Non-Start

Post by BCRAWLER »

By the way please post up your results. Always good to have the info for somebody else to use.
1980 Cherokee,360/727/208, propane powered,unknown lift,31' Adventuro's on Chevy rims,Warn winch
1980 J10,360/standard/208, stepside
1970 GMC 4X4 Pickup, 78 frame, 84 350, Turbo 350/205, patina galore
1986 Blazer K5, 350/205/465 trans
1990 Cherokee XJ, about to scrap for FSJ parts, gone to parts graveyard in sky

Topic author
GrandW
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Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:19 pm

Re: Engine Rebuild Non-Start

Post by GrandW »

BCRAWLER wrote:By the way please post up your results. Always good to have the info for somebody else to use.
For sure. Right now I continue to be mystified.

Swapped back in old spark plugs and wires, nothing. Then flipped the distributor 180, nothing. Put new wires back on, and reversed wire order by 180. Nothing. Flipped distributor 180, nothing. At a complete loss. My understanding is even if it's not perfect, it still should at least cough or choke a bit. Reasonably close and it starts, dialed in it runs smoothly.

Need to step away from it for a moment and come back to it.

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Topic author
GrandW
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Re: Engine Rebuild Non-Start

Post by GrandW »

Okay!!! We've got lift off

Lessons:
If gas shoots out the carb, it's likely 180 off
If it shudders at all, this is really good
While the distributor is in, turn it in increments until it shudders more or less, where more shudder is good
If that doesn't start it, pull the distributor and rotate it one increment towards which way it was shuddering
Then repeat process where while it's in, keep starting it as it shudders until you have lift off

Probably all really basic stuff if you've done it before, but my 1st time. Appreciate everyone's guidance. You are all awesome!

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BCRAWLER
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Re: Engine Rebuild Non-Start

Post by BCRAWLER »

Well done.
1980 Cherokee,360/727/208, propane powered,unknown lift,31' Adventuro's on Chevy rims,Warn winch
1980 J10,360/standard/208, stepside
1970 GMC 4X4 Pickup, 78 frame, 84 350, Turbo 350/205, patina galore
1986 Blazer K5, 350/205/465 trans
1990 Cherokee XJ, about to scrap for FSJ parts, gone to parts graveyard in sky
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Chubbinius
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Re: Engine Rebuild Non-Start

Post by Chubbinius »

Nice! Gotta be satisfying to figure it out and get it to fire up, especially after all the work you did on it.
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-Dauntless 350 V8
-D27 front/D44 rear
2006 XK (65th Ann Edition)-DD

will e
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Re: Engine Rebuild Non-Start

Post by will e »

That's awesome news. Do you know how to perform a proper cam 'break in'?
81 Waggy 'WILL E' Retired
82 Cherokee WT - SOA/SF/high steer/Alcan springs/agr box/Borgeson steering shaft/AMC 401/performer/holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS (2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave, Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37X12.5/Corbeau XRS Baja & 5 point retractable harness/Hella Aux lights/tuffy console/killer32 sliders/Evil Twin bumpers, rack and roll cage/WARN 8000/TT Fabworks steering brace/dual batts/custom TC skid plate/ARB fridge

Topic author
GrandW
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Re: Engine Rebuild Non-Start

Post by GrandW »

will e wrote:That's awesome news. Do you know how to perform a proper cam 'break in'?
Hi Will E - never done it before. From what I've read, the plan was to stay between 2-3K rpms for 20 minutes, trying to vary the actual rpm level. It's got Royal Purple break in oil in the engine. Was going to also flush the radiator at this time.

I'm learning, so more than happy to take advice. Thanks.Image

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Topic author
GrandW
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Re: Engine Rebuild Non-Start

Post by GrandW »

Great joy at starting the engine, followed by a bit of disappointment as the new water pump seems to be leaking. Only one thing to do... pull that all a part and do it again.

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