Pulling an RV

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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Pulling an RV

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

Ok so I finally got the "OK" from my wife to purchase a camper trailer to pull behind the Wagoneer.

But before I start looking at campers I wanted to get the wagoneer up to par.

i'm going to be getting small (under 16') tow behind RV. it will be pretty light weight but before I start climbing mountains I wanted to check with you guys first.

I know I need to fix the wag sag in the rear. I've seen the debate of air shocks or leafsprings. I'm leaning toward the Monroe adjustable air shocks as I've read they are amazing and will do the job fine. With that said i'm just looking for reassurance that the added weight won't break something. Obviously that depends on the condition underneath which is actually in pretty good shape. If I need to do anything more just to be safe should I go add a leaf with air shocks? do I need to worry about the front end? obviously the more money saved the better.

My hitch looks pretty solid, but should I be focusing on any specific area to ensure its in good condition?

Trailer wiring has not been tested at all, i'd imagine it will be easy to fix that if its needed.

should I be looking at doing anything else to this 30 year old vehicle before I assume its RV worthy? The engine is low miles and just resealed and had a top end rebuild so i'm not worried about that, but should I be looking at replacing axle seals or pull certain parts to check? how about brakes?

any suggestions would be much appreciated.
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
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260H Comp Cam
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candymancan
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Re: Pulling an RV

Post by candymancan »

Do me a favor.. Measure the top of the outer wood trim to the bottom of the fender wheel well (above the center of the tire where it archs). Then do the same for the quarter panel.. If the rear is 2 inches lower then the front then thats normal.

There is no wagoneer sag in the rear. The quarter panel itself is actually two inches lower then the fender giving the illusion of the rear sagging.

This was common for all 50-70s vehicles and i seem to be the onky one wjo figired this out.. Just look at your fender and quarter panel notice how the fender cut higher up ? I got new oem springs made in america and while my front gained 3 inchs due to being inverted.. the rear gain 1.2 an imch and that 1.2 an inch probably settled back down.

The rear spring suppport 1150lbs. Our Jeeps can haul 1.2 a ton in the back. So what you should get is the proper tongue for weight distribution. Me personally i installed coil over shocks on all 4 corners. I got the 500lbs ones from gabriel. While they dont add to your maximum weight capacity, what they do is keep the Jeep from dropping down with up to 500 lbs in the back.. Which would be perfect... Im 300 lbs before i got them sitting on the tailgate thr Jeep would plop down.. After i got them it barely moves 1.2 of an inch

But i know people are against the coil over springs.. thinking somehow the bolts which are almost as big as leaf spring bolts will break.. or somehow that 3.16th steel bracket is suddenly going to break off the axle from 500lbs distributed accross two springs( 250lbs).


you can get airbags if you want.. but ive had these coil over on almost 2 years and i even put em on tje front where my frame is cracked by the leaf spring mount from thin metal due to rust.. and it hasnt done anything and i daily drive.

There cheap and it would solve your problem
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9L Limited 219k
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0 I6 laredo 430k
1990 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 155k
1976 Jeep J10.. 85k(repaired)
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: Pulling an RV

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

candymancan wrote:Do me a favor.. Measure the top of the outer wood trim to the bottom of the fender wheel well (above the center of the tire where it archs). Then do the same for the quarter panel.. If the rear is 2 inches lower then the front then thats normal.

There is no wagoneer sag in the rear. The quarter panel itself is actually two inches lower then the fender giving the illusion of the rear sagging.

This was common for all 50-70s vehicles and i seem to be the onky one wjo figired this out.. Just look at your fender and quarter panel notice how the fender cut higher up ? I got new oem springs made in america and while my front gained 3 inchs due to being inverted.. the rear gain 1.2 an imch and that 1.2 an inch probably settled back down.

The rear spring suppport 1150lbs. Our Jeeps can haul 1.2 a ton in the back. So what you should get is the proper tongue for weight distribution. Me personally i installed coil over shocks on all 4 corners. I got the 500lbs ones from gabriel. While they dont add to your maximum weight capacity, what they do is keep the Jeep from dropping down with up to 500 lbs in the back.. Which would be perfect... Im 300 lbs before i got them sitting on the tailgate thr Jeep would plop down.. After i got them it barely moves 1.2 of an inch

But i know people are against the coil over springs.. thinking somehow the bolts which are almost as big as leaf spring bolts will break.. or somehow that 3.16th steel bracket is suddenly going to break off the axle from 500lbs distributed accross two springs( 250lbs).


you can get airbags if you want.. but ive had these coil over on almost 2 years and i even put em on tje front where my frame is cracked by the leaf spring mount from thin metal due to rust.. and it hasnt done anything and i daily drive.

There cheap and it would solve your problem
sounds good! i'll measure them during my lunch break. The only reason I was thinking adjustable air shocks is because I've heard that the coil over shocks cause the ride to be very stiff (which is probably a good thing). So I stumbled across this post:

http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=164066

the only other reason i'm thinking wag sag is when I go over a bridge and come back down, if the drop is significant enough you can literally heard the rear smacking in the back instead of cushioning... it could very well be the the shocks in the back are blown and I don't even know it haha... they were installed by the PO.
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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Stuka
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Re: Pulling an RV

Post by Stuka »

For any camp trailer over 2000lbs, they tend to have electric brakes. So you will need a brake controller.

Also, what gears do you have? The factory tow package came with 3.31's. Which are kind of meh for towing, but way better than the standard 2.73's.
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Re: Pulling an RV

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

Stuka wrote:For any camp trailer over 2000lbs, they tend to have electric brakes. So you will need a brake controller.

Also, what gears do you have? The factory tow package came with 3.31's. Which are kind of meh for towing, but way better than the standard 2.73's.

great questions and tbh I have absolutely no idea what gear ratio. i'd imagine its the 3.31s because this is all original and I think its a factory hitch and tow package but i'm not quite sure. is there a sure fire way I can find out?

the camper i'm looking at would be under 16' however i'm not sure what the weigh ratio is for those. if I need a brake controller I'd imagine it wouldn't be extremely costly to get one put in.
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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Gumby
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Re: Pulling an RV

Post by Gumby »

Check the axels, there is usually a tag that tells the gear ratio. Look at the cover bolts that where the tag is attached.
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Re: Pulling an RV

Post by Stuka »

If the tag is not there, you can always do it the manual way and spin the pinion and count tire rotations. Turning the pinion however many times to get the rear tires to make one rotation. If it takes about 3 1/4 turns, you have 3.31's. If its less than 3, you have 2.73's. Note if you only have one tire jacked up off the ground, it won't be accurate. Both tires need to be up.
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SJTD
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Re: Pulling an RV

Post by SJTD »

If you have one tire on the ground don't you just divide the result by 2. Or maybe multiply. Too early to try to think it through.
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Charles Kline
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Re: Pulling an RV

Post by Charles Kline »

I've been seriously considering getting an camper trailer.

I'm thinking something in the 16' range, retro looking painted baltic blue with at least a woodgrain stripe.
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Re: Pulling an RV

Post by Stuka »

SJTD wrote:If you have one tire on the ground don't you just divide the result by 2. Or maybe multiply. Too early to try to think it through.
This varies per axle. The spider gear to side gear ratio isn't always 2:1.
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derf
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Re: Pulling an RV

Post by derf »

Towing a small-ish camper is well within the capability of a GW. What I would do for a mostly stock 80's era grand:
  • Check the brakes and make sure they are 100% in good shape.
  • Check to see what axle ratio you have. Most have 3.31 gears but some have 2.73's. The 3.31's are what you want for towing. If you have 2.73's you can still do it but it will be less fun accelerating on the road.
  • Make sure you have a good aux transmission cooler and that everything is in good shape.
  • If you question your rear springs and they turn out to be sagging, replace them. Trying to tow with worn out springs is not a fun experience.
  • Air shocks or a set of airbag helper springs is a good addition on top of having good leaf springs.
  • It wouldn't hurt to swap out all of the spring bushings front and rear. A tight suspension is better for towing.
  • Do a once-over on all of the steering joints and make sure they're in great shape. Like the springs, tight steering is better for towing.
  • Go over the wiring and make sure it's in top shape.
  • Look at getting a sway-control hitch with the corresponding stuff installed on the trailer. The wag has a comparatively short wheelbase and trailers can "wag the dog". No reason to tempt fate.
  • A trailer brake controller and brakes on the trailer wheels is worth investing in.
  • As long as we're spending your money, a backup camera where you can see the hitch and line it up is a great addition. :)

SJTD
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Re: Pulling an RV

Post by SJTD »

Stuka wrote:
SJTD wrote:If you have one tire on the ground don't you just divide the result by 2. Or maybe multiply. Too early to try to think it through.
This varies per axle. The spider gear to side gear ratio isn't always 2:1.
I didn't know that. Learn sumpin new every day.
Sic friatur crustulum

'84 GW with Nissan SD33T, early Chev NV4500, 300, narrowed Ford reverse 44, narrowed Ford 60, SOA/reversed shackle in fornt, lowered mount/flipped shackle in rear.

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Re: Pulling an RV

Post by candymancan »

My Wagoneer was bouncy in the rear like you mentioned i could sit on the tailgate and bounce the jeep with my 300lbs and it would rock like a boat on rough water.. When i got those coil over shocks.. it stopped.. And yes it made it stiffer.. without weight in the back you will notice it going over small pot holes or something.. But with weight in the back itll be much smoother. I put the coil overs in the front as well.. Another added benefit of the coil over shocks is body roll is very limited.. When you take turns at certain speeds you know your Jeep leans far into the turn and you habe to lean your body to compensate for it ? When i got the 4 gabriel coil overs.. Hardly any body roll i can make turns at higher speeds now and it does nothing to the Jeep.


stopping power or controk is also increased... a stiffer suspension will keep the nose from diving down when you brake hard.. Another problem i had with normal shocks

.. bad shocks can also cause a bouncy ride btw. How old are your shocks ? Wrong shocks can also cause bouncu rides.. i once put some normal shocks on my 5.9 ZJ i forgot the brand and it made my Jeeo feel like a boat when i stopped at red lights itd rock front to back alot.


Oh and the smacking in the back you mentioned ould also be the frame smacking the body.. I noticed mine and almost every wagoneer ive seen in the junkyard the very last two body mounts werent even attached to the frame anymore.. So when i go over big bumps it can slam back there i can grab the rear bumper and push and lift and itll smack the frame against the body..

Uhh.... i need to replaced all the body mounts soon... Not looking foward to doing that.


Here is where i got the load carrying shocks.. There under 100$ for a pair and free shipping. If you get 4 for the front youll need a few washers when you mount em on tje top to keep the spring away from the shock mount

https://www.autoanything.com/suspension ... ier-shocks

also here is what they look like in the rear

Image
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9L Limited 219k
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0 I6 laredo 430k
1990 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 155k
1976 Jeep J10.. 85k(repaired)
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Re: Pulling an RV

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

sorry for the delay of response guys. I had some issues logging back on the forum.

I really appreciate all the suggestion!

First:

Trans Aux cooler and fittings are brand new so it should be good.

not sure of the shocks, they were there when I bought it and I wouldn't be surprised at they were all absolute crap... this thing was garage kept. I have a feeling it sat for quite a few years after the lady's husband passed away. they did just enough to get it to pass inspection and that's when I stepped in and took it off their hands. all original everything at that time.


Heres what i'm going to do:

1. check the gears in the rear axle. pretty sure they are 3.31 but i'll check that.

2. getting new shocks, i'm sure not 100% sure whether air or coil overs, but the coil overs have a great argument so far so I may go that direction.

3. brakes, My brakes are good but when I press them its not exactly smooth, maybe that's how the ABS used to work? or maybe I have bad rotors. if I need to replace the calipers and rotors does anyone have any suggestions as far as best price?

5. My steering is pretty tight for 30 years old. it probably needs some upgrading in the future but I think it can go awhile longer. ( I guess we'll find out too once i'm hauling it.)

6. my body mounts are original. I believe the rears are still there, but I can't guarantee that. I'll check that out this weekend too.

Questions:


adding a brake control. is this something I can do myself? i'm a noob so keep that in mind. if I get a shop to do it, how much are we thinking is reasonable?

is the sway control hitch something that goes on the camper? can it be added later? i'm going to be getting a very well used camper so I doubt it'll come with one.
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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Re: Pulling an RV

Post by Stuka »

No FSJ had ABS. If you get pulsing you most likely need new rotors and pads.

Brake controllers aren’t hard to install. Also pretty cheap to have a place install it for you (The u-haul place here installs them all the time).
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Re: Pulling an RV

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

Stuka wrote:No FSJ had ABS. If you get pulsing you most likely need new rotors and pads.

Brake controllers aren’t hard to install. Also pretty cheap to have a place install it for you (The u-haul place here installs them all the time).

Interesting.... see.... i'm dumber than a box of rocks sometimes with this stuff.

I much appreciate the help. I will be switching out the rotors and probably even the calipers.

Once I get those all situated i'll install the controller. if its not hard, i'll just probably do it and save me the money and risk of someone else doing it.
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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Cecil14
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Re: Pulling an RV

Post by Cecil14 »

It sounds like you definitely want to go over your vehicle pretty thoroughly before you try towing anything. You really don't want to find out that something is faulty while you're towing, trust me when I say that is no fun and could result in injury or death. Don't be that guy. :)

You're on the right track, though. Just start running through the list. Check your gearing, as you planned.

Make sure the suspension is up to par. I'd skip the air/coil shocks, personally. They're a band-aid at very best, and a liability at worst should something fail while you're depending on them. Go with a good quality shock (Bilstein makes some great ones) and leave the load bearing to your springs, where it belongs. If your current springs are in good shape for normal cruising, I'd look at something like a load leveling system. Airbags assist is one decent option, as is something like a Hellwig spring assist system. I'm not sure what is available specifically for the wags, you'll have to look around a bit. If your springs needs a bit of assistance with no load, you could always drop in an add-a-leaf. The compromise there is a bit of unloaded ride quality. You're upping the static spring rate, so it's going to ride a little rougher without some weight on it. The load leveling systems are specifically designed to stay out of the mix *until* there is a load on the system, then they add spring rate to assist.

Brakes are one of, if not the, most important part of the equation here. There's a boatload of info on upgrading the brakes of these rigs floating around. If you want more assist, swap your vacuum booster out for a hydroboost (http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=106056). For the front brakes, since you're planning to replace them anyway, go with the JB7 Chevy brakes (http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthre ... =142737#15). There are probably other "big brake kits" available from big names like Baer, Brembo, etc. I did the basic JB7 upgrade on my J-10 and have been extremely happy there. For the rear, your only real upgrade option I'm aware of is a disk conversion. Some argue that it's not really much of an upgrade in terms of raw braking performance, but I absolutely abhor drum brakes. If yours are in good working order and adjusted correctly, though, they should serve you fine.

Go through everything in the steering, check it over thoroughly. Make sure all the tie rod ends are nice and tight and greased (if greasable). Make sure the balljoints are solid. Check the wheels bearings at all four corners. Check your spring and shackle bushings, track bar bushings, sway bar links, etc. Make sure everything is up to par.

Odds are the body mounts could stand replacing, they're 30 years old now. A lot of people have issues getting body mount bolts out, so start spraying them with a penetrating oil now. I'm a big fan of the 50/50 acetone/ATF mix, it's pretty amazing to see what that will do to a rusty bolt.

You can definitely add a brake controller yourself, if you want to put in a little effort. There's no magic to it, really. Whatever one you purchase should come with detailed instructions. I would recommend checking all your existing wiring as well. Do you have the relay box back by your hitch? You really don't want to start running trailer lighting off your primary taillight wiring.

A sway control hitch is a full system. It will use a standard 2" receiver hitch, but has additional pieces that attach on both sides (tow vehicle and trailer) to help keep the trailer behind you and not swinging side to side. They can get pricey, but SO worth it. It is not a pleasant experience to have a trailer doing a jig behind you and dragging your tow vehicle wherever it feels like across the highway. It is not something that has to come with the trailer, you can grab one and add it after the fact. A good tow place (like a U-Haul as Stuka mentioned) can help set you up with an appropriate hitch for your rig and trailer.


aa

edit: spelling
Last edited by Cecil14 on Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: Pulling an RV

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

Cecil14 wrote:It sounds like you definitely want to go over your vehicle pretty thoroughly before you try towing anything. You really don't want to find out that something is faulty while you're towing, trust me when I say that is no fun and could result in injury or death. Don't be that guy. :)

You're on the right track, though. Just start running through the list. Check your gearing, as you planned.

Make sure the suspension is up to par. I'd skip the air/coil shocks, personally. They're a band-aid at very best, and a liability at worst should something fail while you're depending on them. Go with a good quality shock (Bilstein makes some great ones) and leave the load bearing to your springs, where it belongs. If your current springs are in good shape for normal cruising, I'd look at something like a load leveling system. Airbags assist is one decent option, as is something like a Hellwig spring assist system. I'm not sure what is available specifically for the wags, you'll have to look around a bit. If your springs needs a bit of assistance with no load, you could always drop in an add-a-leaf. The compromise there is a bit of unloaded ride quality. You're upping the static spring rate, so it's going to ride a little rougher without some weight on it. The load leveling systems are specifically designed to stay out of the mix *until* there is a load on the system, then they add spring rate to assist.

Brakes are one of, if not the, most important part of the equation here. There's a boatload of info on upgrading the brakes of these rigs floating around. If you want more assist, swap your vacuum booster out for a hydroboost (http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=106056). For the front brakes, since you're planning to replace them anyway, go with the JB7 Chevy brakes (http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthre ... =142737#15). There are probably other "big brake kits" available from big names like Baer, Brembo, etc. I did the basic JB7 upgrade on my J-10 and have been extremely happy there. For the rear, your only real upgrade option I'm aware of is a disk conversion. Some argue that it's not really much of an upgrade in terms of raw braking performance, but I absolutely abhor drum brakes. If yours are in good working order and adjusted correctly, though, they should serve you fine.

Go through everything in the steering, check it over thoroughly. Make sure all the tie rod ends are nice and tight and greased (if greasable). Make sure the balljoints are solid. Check the wheels bearings at all four corners. Check your spring and shackle bushings, track bar bushings, sway bar links, etc. Make sure everything is up to par.

Odds are the body mounts could stand replacing, they're 30 years old now. A lot of people have issues getting body mount bolts out, so start spraying them with a penetrating oil now. I'm a big fan of the 50/50 acetone/ATF mix, it's pretty amazing to see what that will do to a rusty bolt.

You can definitely add a brake controller yourself, if you want to put in a little effort. There's no magic to it, really. Whatever one you purchase should come with detailed instructions. I would recommend checking all your existing wiring as well. Do you have the relay box back by your hitch? You really don't want to start running trailer lighting off your primary taillight wiring.

A swap control hitch is a full system. It will use a standard 2" receiver hitch, but has additional pieces that attach on both sides (tow vehicle and trailer) to help keep the trailer behind you and not swinging side to side. They can get pricey, but SO worth it. It is not a pleasant experience to have a trailer doing a jig behind you and dragging your tow vehicle wherever it feels like across the highway. It is not something that has to come with the trailer, you can grab one and add it after the fact. A good tow place (like a U-Haul as Stuka mentioned) can help set you up with an appropriate hitch for your rig and trailer.


aa
What a wealth of knowledge!

I have a friend with a concrete pad. looks like i'm going to be headed to their house and jacking up the jeep to test out everything!

I definitely dont want to be "that guy" haha.

I went to the other forum about the hydroboost and clicked his link but ebay said there is an error. I do want to upgrade to the hydrboost at some point but I need to be strategic to where i'm putting my money. plus i's imagine increased pressure mean increase pressure on old lines and therefore id need to upgrade the 30 year old brake lines unless there's something i'm not thinking about.

I think the first thing I need to do (since inspection is coming in September) is replace the brakes and get them working correctly. while i'm doing that I can check everything else suspension wise.

The trailer wiring I have I believe is all original. I seriously doubt there's a relay box. i'm not great at all with relays and wiring so I may need to have someone help me with that. I can install wired things easily however when it comes to rerouting and understanding it i'm still pretty green around the ears.

it sounds like the sway control hitch is super easy. I googled them and I think that's totally something I can do.

I much appreciate the suggestions! :-bd
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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Cecil14
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Re: Pulling an RV

Post by Cecil14 »

Check for the black box near the hitch on the frame. I believe the factory tow package came with the relay setup. Basically you just run a big power wire (10ga or so) back to a set of relays. Then instead of using the primary taillight wiring to drive the trailer lights, you use the taillight wiring to trigger the relays. The relays then become the power feed for the trailer lights. The taillight wiring was designed to handle the load of a couple bulbs and the wiring along the frame, it was not designed to handle the extra connectors/wiring/fixtures that come with the trailer.

For the hydroboost stuff, Elliott has an ebay store: https://www.ebay.com/usr/sterlingworth1 ... 7675.l2559

Hit him up there and you should be able to get everything you need. I don't think he really visits either of the forums anymore.


aa
1983 J-10 - 4.6L(MPFI)/CS130D/Hydroboost/NV3550/D300/44/44/3.54/Disc-Disc/32s/42 gallon 'burb tank
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Re: Pulling an RV

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

Cecil14 wrote:Check for the black box near the hitch on the frame. I believe the factory tow package came with the relay setup. Basically you just run a big power wire (10ga or so) back to a set of relays. Then instead of using the primary taillight wiring to drive the trailer lights, you use the taillight wiring to trigger the relays. The relays then become the power feed for the trailer lights. The taillight wiring was designed to handle the load of a couple bulbs and the wiring along the frame, it was not designed to handle the extra connectors/wiring/fixtures that come with the trailer.

For the hydroboost stuff, Elliott has an ebay store: https://www.ebay.com/usr/sterlingworth1 ... 7675.l2559

Hit him up there and you should be able to get everything you need. I don't think he really visits either of the forums anymore.


aa

awesome! i'll be looking for that block box this weekend and will definitely reach out to Elliott.
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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