AMC 360 rebuild ideas

[Rinkle_Stinkle]

update: I'm looking at BJ's AMC 360 options.

Double roller timing chain? benefits?

RV cam shaft or Edelbrock 2132 performance?

Degree CAM? not really sure about this, could use an explanation

Roller rockers? needed? what does this do?

don't think I need the oil line mod... not climbing giant rocks....

do I need upgraded pistons? what's the benefit of those?

Port and polish seems like a waste... thoughts?



sorry for the questions but this is how we learn HAHA.

[440sixpack]

The oil mod is a joke. the chain is nice but not necessary.

To answer the rest of your questions and create even more, what compression are you planning on having ? are you taking it to the track ?

[Rinkle_Stinkle]

The oil mod is a joke. the chain is nice but not necessary.

To answer the rest of your questions and create even more, what compression are you planning on having ? are you taking it to the track ?

no track in its future just a daily driver..... not really sure about compression.

[440sixpack]

Unless you're building a higher compression performance engine most of the performance upgrades are a waste of money. it's like putting street slicks on kia it just doesn't make sense.

If you stick with stock cast pistons depending on your deck and head machining you're probably gong to be well under 9 to 1. put a 252H or 26oH type cam in and a 4 barrel and you have a nice economical build that gets you where you're going dependably.

[REDONE]

Timing chain: the roller style isn't important, the number of oiler grooves is. You want as few as possible, and your more likely to get fewer with a stock style chain. Performance chains have more grooves to let more oil sling out into the chain at the expense of oil getting to the dizzy gears, which need it more. The chain dips into a puddle of oil in the bottom of the timing cover, the higher the RPM, the deeper the puddle. The dizzy gears only get what oil travels along the camshaft, the more you let out, the less the dizzy gears get.

Camshaft: the Melling MTA-1 (RV) cam is literally the exact same grind as the Edelbrock Preformer. I like them but others have their favorites as well.

Degreeing a cam: this is primarily done when you want to use a cam at higher RPMs than it was designed for. For all practical considerations, it's a race only application.

Roller rockers: the principle gain on our engines is that it makes each rocker adjustable. For a daily driver, it might net a little bit of seat-of-pants yah-yahs if you screw with them enough, but nothing you'll ever measure in a DD engine.

Oil line mod: you don't need it. The problem was identified by circle and oval track racers at sustained high revs and lateral Gs. Outside those conditions the problem isn't observed.

Pistons: The only reason not to run 9:1 static compression in our engines (most modern engines are 10:1 + and use the fuel injection to control detonation) is the hassle of figuring out how to get there, there's a fair number of considerations. Hypereutectic is an aluminum alloy with higher silica that reduces the amount of thermal expansion. The pistons fit the bore tighter when cold. I like hyper pistons.

Port and Polish: It's not worth what it costs to pay someone else to do it, I'll leave it at that.

If this image isn't too fuzzy, it'll show all the dumb, dumb, dumbdumbdumb oil robbing grooves in the cam sprocket of the timing chain.

[redinwolfe]

Timing chain: the roller style isn't important, the number of oiler grooves is. You want as few as possible, and your more likely to get fewer with a stock style chain. Performance chains have more grooves to let more oil sling out into the chain at the expense of oil getting to the dizzy gears, which need it more. The chain dips into a puddle of oil in the bottom of the timing cover, the higher the RPM, the deeper the puddle. The dizzy gears only get what oil travels along the camshaft, the more you let out, the less the dizzy gears get.

Camshaft: the Melling MTA-1 (RV) cam is literally the exact same grind as the Edelbrock Preformer. I like them but others have their favorites as well.

Degreeing a cam: this is primarily done when you want to use a cam at higher RPMs than it was designed for. For all practical considerations, it's a race only application.

Roller rockers: the principle gain on our engines is that it makes each rocker adjustable. For a daily driver, it might net a little bit of seat-of-pants yah-yahs if you screw with them enough, but nothing you'll ever measure in a DD engine.

Oil line mod: you don't need it. The problem was identified by circle and oval track racers at sustained high revs and lateral Gs. Outside those conditions the problem isn't observed.

Pistons: The only reason not to run 9:1 static compression in our engines (most modern engines are 10:1 + and use the fuel injection to control detonation) is the hassle of figuring out how to get there, there's a fair number of considerations. Hypereutectic is an aluminum alloy with higher silica that reduces the amount of thermal expansion. The pistons fit the bore tighter when cold. I like hyper pistons.

Port and Polish: It's not worth what it costs to pay someone else to do it, I'll leave it at that.

Nice breakdown! I am in the middle of a 360 rebuild myself (having a local guy do mine) and am researching so this thread has been super helpful. I have been looking around about the Oil mod and apparently there are quite a few. Some more geared towards higher rpm motors? Are you saying that none of them are necessary or is it that bjs offers a particular one that isn’t particularly necessary?


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[REDONE]

It doesn't hurt anything. I've done it to my 401s, but not my 304 or 360. One oil mod I did because I couldn't find a timing chain with less than 6 oil grooves in the cam sprocket, is I added an external oil line to supply the dizzy gears. But now I'm just murking up the waters.



It's really concerning how many people replace their timing chain for one reason or another and then start lunching dizzy gear sets. You can see the wear on the dizzy driven gear in the pic, it was used for mock up, maybe 1000 miles on it.

[440sixpack]

None of them are necessary. a typical AMC v8 will last as long as any v8, so some back yard Bubba developed a way to " fix them " with crap he bought at Walmart.

With quality distributor gears aligned properly there should be no issues if you have normal oil pressure and your cam slot is open . the originals lasted just fine because everything was right.

[Rinkle_Stinkle]

Timing chain: the roller style isn't important, the number of oiler grooves is. You want as few as possible, and your more likely to get fewer with a stock style chain. Performance chains have more grooves to let more oil sling out into the chain at the expense of oil getting to the dizzy gears, which need it more. The chain dips into a puddle of oil in the bottom of the timing cover, the higher the RPM, the deeper the puddle. The dizzy gears only get what oil travels along the camshaft, the more you let out, the less the dizzy gears get.

Camshaft: the Melling MTA-1 (RV) cam is literally the exact same grind as the Edelbrock Preformer. I like them but others have their favorites as well.

Degreeing a cam: this is primarily done when you want to use a cam at higher RPMs than it was designed for. For all practical considerations, it's a race only application.

Roller rockers: the principle gain on our engines is that it makes each rocker adjustable. For a daily driver, it might net a little bit of seat-of-pants yah-yahs if you screw with them enough, but nothing you'll ever measure in a DD engine.

Oil line mod: you don't need it. The problem was identified by circle and oval track racers at sustained high revs and lateral Gs. Outside those conditions the problem isn't observed.

Pistons: The only reason not to run 9:1 static compression in our engines (most modern engines are 10:1 + and use the fuel injection to control detonation) is the hassle of figuring out how to get there, there's a fair number of considerations. Hypereutectic is an aluminum alloy with higher silica that reduces the amount of thermal expansion. The pistons fit the bore tighter when cold. I like hyper pistons.

Port and Polish: It's not worth what it costs to pay someone else to do it, I'll leave it at that.

If this image isn't too fuzzy, it'll show all the dumb, dumb, dumbdumbdumb oil robbing grooves in the cam sprocket of the timing chain.

That was a wealth of knowledge and I much appreciate the breakdown. you have seriously taught me a lot in a little bit of writing. So basically if I'm reading this right... RV CAM and then upgrade the CARB and maybe a few other things outside of the engine to reach the HP I am looking for.

I want to thank everyone for taking the time to explain these things to me as I feel a little overwhelmed looking at all the options and while I know a little I definitely don't know enough.

[Rinkle_Stinkle]

SO.... I have an odd and slightly embarrassing update.

I was relying on the shop I took it to before I bought it to diagnose anything wrong with it. at the time he mentioned the rod knock... and while he tried to get me to hear it, I honestly never did.

Last week I took it to a different shop to diagnose a few issues for future repair including to confirm the rod knock. I picked it up Friday and when I did he gave me a run down of his thoughts on everything and one was the rod knock. he says he doesn't think it has a rod knock and he is not really sure why the other shop said there was one. I admitted I never heard it either but that I notice what seems to be a lifter tap. He said he heard that but that a rod knock is a very distinct knock that typically is heard better in idle. He said as far as he is concerned the engine is in great shape and doesn't need a full rebuild. He said if I'm concerned about the high millage he could do an extensive tune up and replace any seals I'm concerned about but he honestly doesn't even think it really needs that.

SO.... looks like I may not need the rebuild after all which my bank account is very happy about.

My question is this though: rod knock don't just go away do they? .... I mean the entire reason behind the rod knock wouldn't allow it to just stop right?

the only thing I did do in between is an oil change and filter change. that shouldn't have stopped it.... so I'm at a lost as of what happened and kind of concerned that shop was trying to swindle me..

[babywag]

Rod knock will NOT just go away. Sounds to me like other shop saw a payday, sadly all to common.
If you're not sure about something always Do as you did and get a second opinion.

Also I'd call the shop/mechanic out on it, and see what they have to say about attempting to defraud you.
I'd also look @ their BBB profile/rating, see if they have a track record of this?
If they do I'd report their sorry ass, no excuse for this kind of thing.

When I was young and in school I worked @ a big chain repair shop. Their goal(per management) was to get $1000 out of every car that came in.
They were VERY aggressive, and they didn't care if the customer ever came back again.
I did NOT agree w/ this policy, and I did everything in my power to undermine it.
When pushed by the salesman I would push right back, and go tell the customers exactly what they needed/did NOT need.
I was almost fired for this if you can believe that BS, being honest was an undesirable work ethic.
I even loaded up my toolbox&went home on two occasions. I worked nights & weekends so frequently got to interact w/ customers myself.
I had more repeat customers than anyone else in that shop, people would specifically ask for me, and come back when they knew I was working.
Venture a guess I had more $ in sales w/ being honest and folks coming back BECAUSE I was honest.

REALLY pisses me off when I hear of shops/mechanics that try this kind of crap. Rant off.

[tgreese]

Yes ... a rod knock will only get worse, and usually rapidly (from tap-tap-tap to BANG-BANG-BANG). It results from the breakdown of the oil film in the rod bearing, so that the bearing metal contacts the crankshaft iron, making a knocking noise. Either the bearing clearance is too large (worn out) and the oil is pushed/drained from the rod bearing too quickly, or some other wear or failure is robbing the rod bearings of oil.

What's your hot idle oil pressure? Hot is full operating temperature, say after you drive on the highway. Very important indicator for these engines. (Have we been through this?) Measure with a quality mechanical gauge - the factory gauges are only advisory.

Did you change the brand of filter? Brand/viscosity of oil? Did you measure the oil pressure before and after the oil change? Very important to track the oil pressure.

[REDONE]

Yeah, rod-knock doesn't go away. It sounds like someone hitting a thick hardwood board with 2lb crosspeen hammer and gets louder until the engine seizes or shatters.

That's great news! Now you can spent you time and money on stuff you want instead of something you don't need!

[Rinkle_Stinkle]

Yes ... a rod knock will only get worse, and usually rapidly (from tap-tap-tap to BANG-BANG-BANG). It results from the breakdown of the oil film in the rod bearing, so that the bearing metal contacts the crankshaft iron, making a knocking noise. Either the bearing clearance is too large (worn out) and the oil is pushed/drained from the rod bearing too quickly, or some other wear or failure is robbing the rod bearings of oil.

What's your hot idle oil pressure? Hot is full operating temperature, say after you drive on the highway. Very important indicator for these engines. (Have we been through this?) Measure with a quality mechanical gauge - the factory gauges are only advisory.

Did you change the brand of filter? Brand/viscosity of oil? Did you measure the oil pressure before and after the oil change? Very important to track the oil pressure.

that's the catch... its low... running around 40/50 or so on highway and sometimes lower to 30 when going slow.... that's where I'm puzzled because I know that's a sign of it.

I match the generic filter brand and size but not sure about the oil as I had just purchased it and not sure what they used before me but used standard generic oil (because I thought I was doing a rebuild).

The temp also runs cold in it ( I know that's a separate issue) so I'll need to address that before too much longer as well.

[Rinkle_Stinkle]

Yeah, rod-knock doesn't go away. It sounds like someone hitting a thick hardwood board with 2lb crosspeen hammer and gets louder until the engine seizes or shatters.

That's great news! Now you can spent you time and money on stuff you want instead of something you don't need!

that's what I've heard online when I was trying to hear what it should sound like... I for the life of me never heard this jeep do anything like that.
I'm hoping a full rebuild is not needed!

the only thing I can guess is he maybe heard the basically free hanging exhaust swinging away banging around but who knows...

[Rinkle_Stinkle]

Rod knock will NOT just go away. Sounds to me like other shop saw a payday, sadly all to common.
If you're not sure about something always Do as you did and get a second opinion.

Also I'd call the shop/mechanic out on it, and see what they have to say about attempting to defraud you.
I'd also look @ their BBB profile/rating, see if they have a track record of this?
If they do I'd report their sorry ass, no excuse for this kind of thing.

When I was young and in school I worked @ a big chain repair shop. Their goal(per management) was to get $1000 out of every car that came in.
They were VERY aggressive, and they didn't care if the customer ever came back again.
I did NOT agree w/ this policy, and I did everything in my power to undermine it.
When pushed by the salesman I would push right back, and go tell the customers exactly what they needed/did NOT need.
I was almost fired for this if you can believe that BS, being honest was an undesirable work ethic.
I even loaded up my toolbox&went home on two occasions. I worked nights & weekends so frequently got to interact w/ customers myself.
I had more repeat customers than anyone else in that shop, people would specifically ask for me, and come back when they knew I was working.
Venture a guess I had more $ in sales w/ being honest and folks coming back BECAUSE I was honest.

REALLY pisses me off when I hear of shops/mechanics that try this kind of crap. Rant off.

yeah this dude seemed nice and legit but about halfway through the inspection my spidy senses start tingling... esp when he quote off his head 7k for a rebuild...

[letank]

SO.... I have an odd and slightly embarrassing update.

SO.... looks like I may not need the rebuild after all which my bank account is very happy about.

good to read, it is not embarrassing, it is gaining experience... for every problem there is a simple solution.

time for the screwdriver test to locate the sound, put the blade of a large screwdriver on various parts of the engine and the plastic end against your ear to pinpoint the tapping sound, start on the valve cover and watch for the fan and belt and rotating pulleys.

as said above the type of oil and filter used are important too. The time I changed the oil filter for a better brand I developped a tapping sound , probably not related to the oil filter change when I had 190Kmiles, one of the hydraulic lifter collapsed and before the internet or BBB, i did not try to use any of the known tricks like MMO or transmission fluid added to the engine oil. I replaced only the 16 lifters, that was 150Kmiles ago on the same engine...

The timing chain gear is a real issue, there are some good pictures on this site about the alignement of oiling hole

http://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12192

Unfortunately a lot of the picts where on photobucket and not available anymore, I have the some good picts and will post it later. SC397 has some very good infos on engine rebuilt, he is really an expert on this subject.

May be we need a sticky for timing chain gears so the topic does not come every so often... same for ammeter bypass, oil pressure... and battery cables

Added as you posted a new reply,

time to use some good oil, rotella 15W40 is a oil for diesel which is good for our engines, so if you are not in subzero weather you can use it, otherwise 10W30 for the winter, for the oil filter I found the AC at the local autozone or Oreillys.

the oil pressure fluctuations are normal, when the engine will starve for oil, you will hear it... as for the temp being low, time for using an infra red non contact thermometer or a oven temp gauge and stick in between the radiator finns...

remember that our "jeep gauges are not accurate, they are for entertainment only" (from Carnuck)

[Rinkle_Stinkle]

SO.... I have an odd and slightly embarrassing update.

SO.... looks like I may not need the rebuild after all which my bank account is very happy about.

good to read, it is not embarrassing, it is gaining experience... for every problem there is a simple solution.

time for the screwdriver test to locate the sound, put the blade of a large screwdriver on various parts of the engine and the plastic end against your ear to pinpoint the tapping sound, start on the valve cover and watch for the fan and belt and rotating pulleys.

as said above the type of oil and filter used are important too. The time I changed the oil filter for a better brand I developped a tapping sound , probably not related to the oil filter change when I had 190Kmiles, one of the hydraulic lifter collapsed and before the internet or BBB, i did not try to use any of the known tricks like MMO or transmission fluid added to the engine oil. I replaced only the 16 lifters, that was 150Kmiles ago on the same engine...

The timing chain gear is a real issue, there are some good pictures on this site about the alignement of oiling hole

http://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12192

Unfortunately a lot of the picts where on photobucket and not available anymore, I have the some good picts and will post it later. SC397 has some very good infos on engine rebuilt, he is really an expert on this subject.

May be we need a sticky for timing chain gears so the topic does not come every so often... same for ammeter bypass, oil pressure... and battery cables

Added as you posted a new reply,

time to use some good oil, rotella 15W40 is a oil for diesel which is good for our engines, so if you are not in subzero weather you can use it, otherwise 10W30 for the winter, for the oil filter I found the AC at the local autozone or Oreillys.

the oil pressure fluctuations are normal, when the engine will starve for oil, you will hear it... as for the temp being low, time for using an infra red non contact thermometer or a oven temp gauge and stick in between the radiator finns...

remember that our "jeep gauges are not accurate, they are for entertainment only" (from Carnuck)

so.... the timing chain gear should be replaced to improve oil circulation?

also help me understand oil pressure, low oil pressure is better than high oil pressure correct? does high oil pressure mean a possible blockage? i'm just trying to understand the difference.

I want to keep the vehicle in an original looking state so prefer not to replace gauges with upgraded ones.... however I imagine there is something I can buy that can be discreet like a plug where I can hook something up to get a more accurate reading? I have found "EngineStat" which is expensive but seems like it might be what i'm looking for. anyone else know of another company that does this?

I will listen to the engine in more depth this weekend to see if I can narrow down the noise.... if its a lifter where will I hear it? if its a rod (which I doubt) where will I hear it and so forth....

I really appreciate you guys helping me out, i'm pretty new to engine fixes... I can do pretty much everything else but engine diagnostics aren't my strong suit.... yet

[440sixpack]

Low oil pressure means you have wear. rods, mains, cam bearings. could be partly an oil pump issue but if it's worn so are your bearings.

High oil pressure means everything is in good condition or you need a thinner oil viscosity. if you have a blockage bad enough to raise your pressure you'll soon find it, when your engine fails.

Sounds like you have two opinions on the condition of your engine. what the second guy told you is encouraging and you should really investigate before you proceed. but don't assume the first guy was wrong just because the second guy told you what you wanted to hear.

[yz400e]

A question regarding adding 'performance parts'.

is there any benefit to using the Performer heads that Edelbrock sells for the AMC V8 for a basically stock engine ?
I.e. OEM equivalent pistons, the cam described above, performer manifold, 4 BBl 600cfm carb ?

OR are the heads basically stock in their design but made out of aluminum ?

thanks