AMC 360 rebuild ideas

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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

REDONE wrote:You don't need to re move the cylinder head to get at the lifter. The lifters are under the intake manifold. You also have to remove the rocker cover so you can loosen the effected rocker and get the push rod out. On the other hand, the cam and lifters wear in together, so a dead lifter can mean a new cam. :o

so how extensive is it to change the CAM as well just taking off the cylinder head? any video links you can provide on dealing with this?
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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tgreese
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Post by tgreese »

Conventional wisdom says a new lifter on a new cam is best, new lifter on an old cam is ok. Once they wear in, the lifters are matched to that cam lobe and can't be moved around. In either case I would use break-in oil or zinc additive for the first few thousand miles, just like for a new engine.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
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tgreese
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Post by tgreese »

The cam comes out the front of the engine, so you at least need to take the lifters out and the timing cover off, and remove the radiator and maybe grille? That's assuming the cam bearings are still in good condition.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

tgreese wrote:The cam comes out the front of the engine, so you at least need to take the lifters out and the timing cover off, and remove the radiator and maybe grille? That's assuming the cam bearings are still in good condition.


so if cam bearings are not still good then we are talking full rebuild like before because that involves the pistons correct?
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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tgreese
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Post by tgreese »

Cam bearing replacement does not require removing the pistons. Not impossible to replace the cam bearings at home, but for 99.999% of builders, the block has to be bare and go to a shop for cam bearing replacement.

When you strip the block, you'd need to evaluate the cylinder bores to see if you need pistons. It is possible to hone the bores and reuse the old pistons with iron rings to get some more life out of the engine. The old-fashioned overhaul is rings, rod bearings and valve grind. I mentioned this in the other thread that you are following. Back in the day, an overhaul would maybe get you maybe another 50% of lifetime from a moderately tired engine ... maybe.

An overhaul is not done so much today. I suspect it's because it's hard to compete on price with a factory-built remanufactured engine (likely built across the border)... or maybe it's because the modern iron crankshafts wear faster than the old forged steel cranks, and rod bearing failure takes out the crank along with the bearing.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

tgreese wrote:Cam bearing replacement does not require removing the pistons. Not impossible to replace the cam bearings at home, but for 99.999% of builders, the block has to be bare and go to a shop for cam bearing replacement.

When you strip the block, you'd need to evaluate the cylinder bores to see if you need pistons. It is possible to hone the bores and reuse the old pistons with iron rings to get some more life out of the engine. The old-fashioned overhaul is rings, rod bearings and valve grind. I mentioned this in the other thread that you are following. Back in the day, an overhaul would maybe get you maybe another 50% of lifetime from a moderately tired engine ... maybe.

An overhaul is not done so much today. I suspect it's because it's hard to compete on price with a factory-built remanufactured engine (likely built across the border)... or maybe it's because the modern iron crankshafts wear faster than the old forged steel cranks, and rod bearing failure takes out the crank along with the bearing.

so with all that said how can I figure out if the CAM bearings are good or not without doing the full tear down?

sorry for all the questions :oops:
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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REDONE
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Post by REDONE »

Back to basics, fix the exhaust leaks before you even think about opening up the engine, the vast majority of "lifter tick" is really just an exhaust leak. Watch a YouTube video or two on doing a compression test as well. It's a fun way to spend an afternoon for a first timer, and the only potential for messing it up is putting the plug wires back on wrong.
79 J-10 (Honcho Mucho) KE0LSU
304/Performance Fuel Injection TBI/MTA1/SP2P/Magnum rockers
T18/D20/D44s&4.10s/33" Mud Claws
Grizzly Locker Rear
4" front spring drop, 5" rear shackle flip
Chevy style HEI (ECM controlled)
Dolphin "Shark" gauges in a fancy homemade oak bezel
3/4 resto, rotting faster than I've been fixing it.
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

REDONE wrote:Back to basics, fix the exhaust leaks before you even think about opening up the engine, the vast majority of "lifter tick" is really just an exhaust leak. Watch a YouTube video or two on doing a compression test as well. It's a fun way to spend an afternoon for a first timer, and the only potential for messing it up is putting the plug wires back on wrong.

Sounds like a blast! :D

I will get on that tomorrow.
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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tgreese
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Post by tgreese »

Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:...


so with all that said how can I figure out if the CAM bearings are good or not without doing the full tear down?

sorry for all the questions :oops:
NP.

Well, typically you would replace the cam bearings routinely at rebuild time. Most of the time, if you swap out the cam, you'd slide out the cam and you can sorta see the bearings from the valley where the intake manifold was, and through the hole in the block where the cam was. The cam bearings don't take a pounding like the mains or especially the rods do, so they usually last a lot longer than the crank bearings.

I can think of a couple of scenarios where the cam bearings would be suspect. First, if you have low oil pressure and the oil pump measures right, and you've eliminated every possibility except delaminating cam bearings. Then you go in and look at the bearings. The other scenario is you want to swap out the cam, and the bearings look bad. Here's a bad cam bearing (it's coming apart, not wearing out. Not unknown for these engines.) -

Image
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

tgreese wrote:
Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:...


so with all that said how can I figure out if the CAM bearings are good or not without doing the full tear down?

sorry for all the questions :oops:
NP.

Well, typically you would replace the cam bearings routinely at rebuild time. Most of the time, if you swap out the cam, you'd slide out the cam and you can sorta see the bearings from the valley where the intake manifold was, and through the hole in the block where the cam was. The cam bearings don't take a pounding like the mains or especially the rods do, so they usually last a lot longer than the crank bearings.

I can think of a couple of scenarios where the cam bearings would be suspect. First, if you have low oil pressure and the oil pump measures right, and you've eliminated every possibility except delaminating cam bearings. Then you go in and look at the bearings. The other scenario is you want to swap out the cam, and the bearings look bad. Here's a bad cam bearing (it's coming apart, not wearing out. Not unknown for these engines.) -

Image

Makes sense! :-bd
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

so new update. I was listening to the engine this weekend and pinpointed the tapping sound in the valve cover, thinking cylinder #1-2 (not sure which side is which). So I'm thinking its the lifter. Currently I have a cleaning oil additive in that I'm going to run for about 1K miles in hopes of maybe cleaning the lifter and then replacing that oil with a thicker oil and premium oil filter to see if that makes a difference. once I have gone through all that, if the noise continues or gets worse then I will accept my fate and look into swapping out the motor and rebuilding the original on the side.

My shed is small and not really designed to do engine work. I don't have a lot of the tools that would make it easy including a compressor, engine holder, picker, impact, etc.

Comparing the price of parts, tools and over all my time I'm thinking I wouldn't even come out even on the cost of a swap at this time. SO I want to save the original for a future project when I have more time and money to invest into it. I also think that when I do the rebuild I will want to actually invest heavily into the motor instead of trying to cut corners now to get it running.

So the next big question is who has experience in storing a used motor for a future rebuild? what can I do to ensure it doesn't rust, warp or degrade...
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust

ShagWagon
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Post by ShagWagon »

Did you check for exhaust manifold leak? Try tightning the bolts. Makes a lot of clicking noises if it's leaking
87 Grand Wagoneer Rebuilt 360 by S&J, Fitech GO EFI 600, Novak in-tank fuel pump, Skyjacker Hydro 4" lift, BFG AT KO2 30", Dynamax Muffler, MSD distributor, MSD ignition, Edlebrock perf 4bbl intake, Elgin perf cam, Oil tube mod, Roller rockers, chrome molly lifters, HD alum radiator, Powermaster 150/100 alt, Alum HD water pump, Serhills tailgate harness, Cowl screen mod, Evil Twin grab handles, Rstep's custom AMC door lock knobs, all electrical works.
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

ShagWagon wrote:Did you check for exhaust manifold leak? Try tightning the bolts. Makes a lot of clicking noises if it's leaking
I did and I'm pretty confident its a lifter at this point because its a specific area under the valve cover.
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust

letank
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Post by letank »

If you have no room and no tools, it will turn into a headache... storing an engine is a tough one, hard to move and hard to keep clean.

the cheap way is to remove lifter and clean it... or buy only ONE new lifter, or replace all 16 while you are at it.

In fact (thinkin gabout it) the cheap way is to pull the valve cover to make sure that you do not have a loose rocker arm

from:
http://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12654

and this post from Jim

If the tick proves not to be an exhaust leak you might consider pulling the valve cover and inspecting the rocker arms and bridges.
The bridges have pivot surfaces that ride on the rocker arms and wear down over time causing a loose condition that leads to a constant ticking.

One old school fix for this was to file or sand the base of the bridge which lowers it toward the head thus taking up a few thousands and clicking-be-gone.
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

OK so you ready for the 180 flip? I'm actually going to rebuild the top end of the engine. Last night I did a crap ton of research and I feel like its totally something I can do and I simply cant justify spending 4K on a new engine and swap for a $5 part... I'm just not going to do it haha.
I can spend that money on a new paint job, new vinyls and new headers and exhaust.

SO... it looks fairly straight forward but I'm almost certain once I get started i'll get frustrated but hey that's the name of the game right?

I'm going to start by removing the belts, intake manifold, then header. I'll look at the gasket at that time but if I'm already that far in i'll just remove the valve cover and pull and push on the rockers. as stated before I believe its in the front end possible cylinder 1 or 2 (again not sure which side is which). if I discover there is play in the rocker then i'll know for certain its the lifter and begin taking apart the rocker and so forth. From what I gather and I believe it was mentioned here I should be able to get the lifter out without taking off the head.

After removing I'm going to inspect the lifter to see if its worn weird, if so then i'll know at that point the CAM is probably not worth keeping and will then remove all rockers, lifters etc and pull the CAM. if I'm that far i'll inspect the bearings in hopes they are still good.

If not then at that point i'll just order another engine and call it a life lesson.

I'm having a really hard time finding a shop around here that will give me a fair price on an engine rebuild.... I have tried for weeks to get quotes and most either blow me off or the ones that come in are just not worth the money.

If all looks good i'll switch out the CAM, replace the lifters and put new springs and rocker arms (only if needed)
throw the cover on and throw it all back together.

If anyone has a detailed breakdown of step by step on doing this or knows of a thread or video of someone doing it I would greatly appreciate it.
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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tgreese
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Post by tgreese »

Do you actually have headers, or factory equipment iron manifolds? The iron manifolds did not have gaskets from the factory.

Don't tear it apart until you at least check the compression. A leak-down test would be even better. The running engine will tell you things that the torn-down engine can not.

If you have an exhaust leak and it's hard to find, it's not doing much harm. Never tried it, but I recall you can connect the shop vac to the tailpipe, pressurize the exhaust, and look for places where air is coming out. Lots of tests to do before you tear into the engine.

I'd suggest you do this interactively, using the forum as your sounding board. Do the easy stuff first - remove the valve covers and look for a broken rocker bridge or a bent pushrod. Rotate the engine to each cylinder's TDC and examine how much slack is in the rockers. You can even put the valve covers back with the old gaskets and some silicone, if you need to run it temporarily.
Last edited by tgreese on Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

tgreese wrote:Do you actually have headers, or factory equipment iron manifolds? The iron manifolds did not have gaskets from the factory.

Don't tear it apart until you at least check the compression. A leak-down test would be even better. The running engine will tell you things that the torn-down engine can not.

If you have an exhaust leak and it's hard to find, it's not doing much harm. Never tried it, but I recall you can connect the shop vac to the tailpipe, pressurize the exhaust, and look for places where air is coming out. Lots of tests to do before you tear into the engine.

I'd suggest you do this interactively, using the forum as your sounding board. Do the easy stuff first - remove the valve covers and look for a broken rocker bridge or a bent pushrod. Rotate the engine to each cylinder's TDC and examine how much slack is in the rockers. You can even put the rockers back with the old gaskets and some silicone, if you need to run it temporarily.

I planned to do a pressure test either this weekend or next and will do a leak down test as well so i'll find out more about that before I order parts.

it still has the iron exhaust manifolds on but they look really bad. I figured if I'm replacing the exhaust pipe in the future it may just be a good idea to replace those as well since I've already removed them and then all I'll have to do it unbolt the exhaust pipe from them when I replace that. but maybe I'm just over thinking it and just need to throw a gasket on them and leave them alone for now?

I feel like if it was an exhaust leak causing the tap then I wouldn't hear the tap loudest in the front of the valve cover driver side, but maybe I'm wrong??

I would do the vacuum test but the exhaust pipe has about 15 billion leaks and holes in it so I'm not sure if i'll even feel a leak if I try it that way. with that said I will still try and see what happens, couldn't hurt.

Do I need to pull the intake manifold as well to get to the lifters? Some say yes, others say a very strong magnet will work from the rod holes.
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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REDONE
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Post by REDONE »

the lifters don't fit through the rod holes, you have to pull the intake.
79 J-10 (Honcho Mucho) KE0LSU
304/Performance Fuel Injection TBI/MTA1/SP2P/Magnum rockers
T18/D20/D44s&4.10s/33" Mud Claws
Grizzly Locker Rear
4" front spring drop, 5" rear shackle flip
Chevy style HEI (ECM controlled)
Dolphin "Shark" gauges in a fancy homemade oak bezel
3/4 resto, rotting faster than I've been fixing it.
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

REDONE wrote:the lifters don't fit through the rod holes, you have to pull the intake.
very glad I asked then. It funny cause I saw a picture after posting that and scratched my head because it didn't make sense at all that you can access them without taking off the intake.

also realized you already stated this... not sure why I already forgot that, my apologies.
Last edited by Rinkle_Stinkle on Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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Topic author
Rinkle_Stinkle
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:22 am

Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Post by Rinkle_Stinkle »

found a friend with an empty 1.5 car garage... power and heat... looks like it was meant to be. He has a compressor, impact and sockets, engine lift and stand and just about anything else I could need.

I felt like a kid at Christmas. I'm actually taking the jeep to a shop today that specializes in diagnosing engine noise. I figured since this will be my first time with engine work it may be good to get another opinion on what is going on and an experienced ear to locate the sound. Once I get that opinion I will help get the garage set up and start doing those test on the jeep to find out if the engine is worth a top end rebuild or if it needs a full rebuild. Fingers crossed!

SO... if I'm doing a top end rebuild (which it seriously looks like I'm doing) from what I gather it would be wise to upgrade to the RV CAM, upgrade the top timing chain gear (And timing chain obvs), look into a performance intake manifold and upgrade the ignition.

Since I'm breaking down the top end should I just bite the bullet and get new heads and with that said are there any kits I could buy that contain most of this stuff or does someone have a breakdown of part numbers I should be looking at?

right now I'm looking at a CAM, timing chain, gears and lifter kit #SK10-202-4
Performance intake # EDL-7531
and of course they recommend these heads #EDL-60119 (But I'm not spending 2K on a set of heads... simply can't justify it) so I could use some recommendations on that... so I need performance heads or can I go stock?
I did find these for $665 a piece. "Edelbrock 60779 Performer Series RPM Cylinder Head" worth it?
also saw ATK Cylinder Head (Natural) - 2D58 for $375 a piece

when it comes to the ignition, should I go TFI or HEI? I;ve seen that the TFI ignition is easier to install but not sure the pros and cons of each.
Last edited by Rinkle_Stinkle on Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
1988 Grand Wag
AMC 360 with 96K
Edelbrock intake manifold
260H Comp Cam
Edelbrock AVS 4brl carb
Headman headers
2" to thrush muff with 3" tip exhaust
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