Source for the "good" timing set??

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tedlovesjeeps71
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Source for the "good" timing set??

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

Sorry for starting an entire thread for this but Tapatalk doesn't let me search. Been scrolling through and can't for the life of me find where someone was talking about the good AMC 360 timing chain and gear set. So who makes it and where can I order it? I'll have to do a water pump and front main seal soon on the wife's waggy and want to do the chain etc while I have it all apart.


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REDONE
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Re: Source for the

Post by REDONE »

None. The OEM styles (crummy non-roller style) are prone to having the oiling slot either in the wrong place (so it's blocked off by the cam eccentric) or it's poorly made so oil is restricted too much.

The aftermarket ones have a whole bunch of grooves in the face so all the oil slings out all over the timing chain instead of continuing through the cam eccentric to the dizzy gear. This is a stupid design flaw because chains and sprockets don't need tons and tons of oil, gears do.

My super overkill solution was to add an oil sprayer through the timing cover just to feed the dizzy gears. I'll try and find a pic and come back and edit it in.EDIT>>
Image
Last edited by REDONE on Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
79 J-10 (Honcho Mucho) KE0LSU
304/Performance Fuel Injection TBI/MTA1/SP2P/Magnum rockers
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Cheap Hobby
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Re: Source for the

Post by Cheap Hobby »

Cloyes 3008K . Have used it on several engines never had any problems with it.
Look at the distributer drive gear and the cam distriduter drive gear closely. If they look good reuse, if not use MSD 8005 for distributer gear and 8007 for cam drive gear.
Before you tear it down for the chain and pump recommend you do a real good flush of the cooling system .
79 Cherokee WT QT Golden Eagle white with gold windows "Pigger" only blows hubs the night before a road trip or the clodest night of year. Has only been towed cause of stupid.
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REDONE
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Re: Source for the

Post by REDONE »

EDIT>> Because I used a stock photo from amazon instead of an actual pic of the timing set.

I'll add some more when I find them showing the oil robbing grooves used by Cloyes, summit, comp and the others.

Here's a Cloyes 3118 (roller version for AMC). You can see the two grooves that bleed off all the oil pressure so there's nothing to push the oil through the cam eccentric to the dizzy gears.
Image

Summit's rebrand with the same two grooves
Image

Here's Summits non-roller with a whopping six grooves
Image
79 J-10 (Honcho Mucho) KE0LSU
304/Performance Fuel Injection TBI/MTA1/SP2P/Magnum rockers
T18/D20/D44s&4.10s/33" Mud Claws
Grizzly Locker Rear
4" front spring drop, 5" rear shackle flip
Chevy style HEI (ECM controlled)
Dolphin "Shark" gauges in a fancy homemade oak bezel
3/4 resto, rotting faster than I've been fixing it.

Nikkormat
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Re: Source for the

Post by Nikkormat »

Matt, the OE "industrial" metal timing set has two slots. There is nothing wrong with the Cloyes True Roller sets.

The issue with the cam sprocket is that the slot on the backside is ground in the incorrect location on most sets. I have seen the Edelbrock and rebranded sets come with the groove in the wrong spot. I've never seen REAL Cloyes True Roller set mis machined.

Ted, re use your stock dizzy gears unless they're torn up. And order this timing set: https://m.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-1118

More info on the sets: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=182060

If you had a 360 with really terrible oil pressure you were paranoid about loosing a distributor gear on just find an old school oxy acetylene welder and have the oil slots brazed shut.
Gabe, "reformed" Jeep hoarder.
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tedlovesjeeps71
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Re: Source for the "good" timing set??

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

Thanks for all that info and advice guys. The Hamilton fuel injection comes with a modified dizzy so I'm not too worried about that gear. I just have a feeling that if the timing chain is like much of the rest of the stuff I'm discovering, it's past time for a replacement. Figure the chain without gears is kinda half-ass, no?


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Nikkormat
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Re: Source for the

Post by Nikkormat »

The gears have to remain as a matched set. Use the gear from your old distributor.
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tedlovesjeeps71
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Re: Source for the "good" timing set??

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

Nikkormat wrote:The gears have to remain as a matched set. Use the gear from your old distributor.
But if I order a new chain and set and the dizzy comes with a new gear.... which do I use??


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Nikkormat
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Re: Source for the

Post by Nikkormat »

tedlovesjeeps71 wrote:
Nikkormat wrote:The gears have to remain as a matched set. Use the gear from your old distributor.
But if I order a new chain and set and the dizzy comes with a new gear.... which do I use??


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OK I'm confused.

Use the new timing chain, crank, and cam sprockets.

Then there's a seperate gear for the distributor. One mounted to the cam and one mounted to the distributor itself. Those gears should be kept as a matched set.
Gabe, "reformed" Jeep hoarder.
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tedlovesjeeps71
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Re: Source for the "good" timing set??

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

Nikkormat wrote:
tedlovesjeeps71 wrote:
Nikkormat wrote:The gears have to remain as a matched set. Use the gear from your old distributor.
But if I order a new chain and set and the dizzy comes with a new gear.... which do I use??


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OK I'm confused.

Use the new timing chain, crank, and cam sprockets.

Then there's a seperate gear for the distributor. One mounted to the cam and one mounted to the distributor itself. Those gears should be kept as a matched set.
Haha... so am I!
This is what I want to replace:

Image

Wasn't planning to touch the cam gear that drives the dizzy. Unless... as it seems your saying, the replacement dizzy which comes with the FI needs to use my old dizzy drive gear instead of the one it will come with??


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Nikkormat
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Re: Source for the

Post by Nikkormat »

tedlovesjeeps71 wrote:
Nikkormat wrote:
tedlovesjeeps71 wrote:
But if I order a new chain and set and the dizzy comes with a new gear.... which do I use??


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OK I'm confused.

Use the new timing chain, crank, and cam sprockets.

Then there's a seperate gear for the distributor. One mounted to the cam and one mounted to the distributor itself. Those gears should be kept as a matched set.
Haha... so am I!
This is what I want to replace:

Image

Wasn't planning to touch the cam gear that drives the dizzy. Unless... as it seems your saying, the replacement dizzy which comes with the FI needs to use my old dizzy drive gear instead of the one it will come with??


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So, there is a distributor gear on the cam. It is "mated" or "worn in" to match the gear mounted to the distributor. They need to remain together as a set.

Your Hamilton dizzy will come with a new gear on it, swap your old distributor gear on instead to keep the mated pair together.
Gabe, "reformed" Jeep hoarder.
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tedlovesjeeps71
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Re: Source for the "good" timing set??

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

Nikkormat wrote:
tedlovesjeeps71 wrote:
Nikkormat wrote:
OK I'm confused.

Use the new timing chain, crank, and cam sprockets.

Then there's a seperate gear for the distributor. One mounted to the cam and one mounted to the distributor itself. Those gears should be kept as a matched set.
Haha... so am I!
This is what I want to replace:

Image

Wasn't planning to touch the cam gear that drives the dizzy. Unless... as it seems your saying, the replacement dizzy which comes with the FI needs to use my old dizzy drive gear instead of the one it will come with??


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So, there is a distributor gear on the cam. It is "mated" or "worn in" to match the gear mounted to the distributor. They need to remain together as a set.

Your Hamilton dizzy will come with a new gear on it, swap your old distributor gear on instead to keep the mated pair together.
Gotcha. That's kinda what I thought you meant to say. Thanks for that. Image


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ShagWagon
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Re: Source for the

Post by ShagWagon »

I got mine at teamgrandwagoneer.com

I don't know what kind it is. It fit well and looked good and works good. No problems.

I got a hi flow water pump from them too. It was a Japanese one and seems much better than the original rusty looking one I had. Pretty good.
87 Grand Wagoneer Rebuilt 360 by S&J, Fitech GO EFI 600, Novak in-tank fuel pump, Skyjacker Hydro 4" lift, BFG AT KO2 30", Dynamax Muffler, MSD distributor, MSD ignition, Edlebrock perf 4bbl intake, Elgin perf cam, Oil tube mod, Roller rockers, chrome molly lifters, HD alum radiator, Powermaster 150/100 alt, Alum HD water pump, Serhills tailgate harness, Cowl screen mod, Evil Twin grab handles, Rstep's custom AMC door lock knobs, all electrical works.

ShagWagon
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Re: Source for the

Post by ShagWagon »

So what did I get?

I should have taken a pic.
87 Grand Wagoneer Rebuilt 360 by S&J, Fitech GO EFI 600, Novak in-tank fuel pump, Skyjacker Hydro 4" lift, BFG AT KO2 30", Dynamax Muffler, MSD distributor, MSD ignition, Edlebrock perf 4bbl intake, Elgin perf cam, Oil tube mod, Roller rockers, chrome molly lifters, HD alum radiator, Powermaster 150/100 alt, Alum HD water pump, Serhills tailgate harness, Cowl screen mod, Evil Twin grab handles, Rstep's custom AMC door lock knobs, all electrical works.

letank
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Re: Source for the

Post by letank »

no source but a linky to pict so you can check the specs, the post gives ref to parts sources in 2012...

http://theamcforum.com/forum/edelbrock- ... page4.html

Image

As specs, the number of slots may be detrimental, some have resorted to filling some of the radial slots.

The bottom is the OEM -no slot- the top left is the true roller -2 slots- and the comp cam on the right has 6 slots -this is in 2012-

The OEM shows remnants of the plastic cover/side guide that was used in those days... my 74 had it when I first did the timing chain in 1985 or 86...
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)

Schiener
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Re: Source for the

Post by Schiener »

I'll look at the engine oil diagram later, but the slots you see on the back of the cam gear are to oil the thrust face of the cam gear. Granted, oil will come out of there, depending on how much oil is directed thru the front cam bearing. I'm new to AMC engines, but have rebuilt hundreds of engines when I was partner in a machine shop. Buick V engines use a similar distributor drive/oil pump/fuel pump system & don't have any dist gear issues. I'll disagree with the person above who wrote that timing chains don't need much oil-they do. It doesn't need to be pressurized, but there needs to be a good supply of oil to lube & cool the chain & gears. I'll post what I learn from the oil schematic. This does seem to be a huge problem with these engines.

letank
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Re: Source for the

Post by letank »

This other factor is the chamfer on the side opposite to the slots, I found some timing gears that have different chamfer sizes, .140 for the oldest bought in 2007 and .070 for the latest in 2012, both from BJs. Pict slow to upload, but check this:

Image

Image

Oiling starts at the front cam journal, the cam or the bearing needs to be grooved, the cam has to have a hole from the groove to the front face, where the timing chain gear contacts the front of the cam. The timing gear has to have a chamfer to distribute this oil, and a slot through which the oil moves forward to the distributor drive gear on the cam

http://theamcforum.com/forum/do-these-p ... g+gear+oil

Image

and a way to lube the chain by adding an oil hole in the anti-walk plate -on page 5 of the above ref-

Image
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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tedlovesjeeps71
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Re: Source for the "good" timing set??

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

Image
Image


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letank
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Re: Source for the

Post by letank »

tedlovesjeeps71 wrote:Image
Image


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Interesting slot length, I am no expert, just trolling thru the various sites to understand and share the issues - the chamfer still evades me- For years I replaced timing set sold by the local chain parts place. The last 2 sets, I reused the gears and only replaced the chain...

I need to find the posting done by somebody that sacrificed a timing cover to visualize the oil spray pattern on the chain and distributor gears.
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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tedlovesjeeps71
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Re: Source for the "good" timing set??

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

letank wrote:
tedlovesjeeps71 wrote:Image
Image


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Interesting slot length, I am no expert, just trolling thru the various sites to understand and share the issues - the chamfer still evades me- For years I replaced timing set sold by the local chain parts place. The last 2 sets, I reused the gears and only replaced the chain...

I need to find the posting done by somebody that sacrificed a timing cover to visualize the oil spray pattern on the chain and distributor gears.
Wouldn't it be cool if someone could cast the timing cover out of clear ABS plastic so we could see what is going on. Kinda like the Visible V8 models of days gone by. Image


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