AMC 360 rebuild ideas

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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Postby Rinkle_Stinkle » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:24 am

440sixpack wrote:Low oil pressure means you have wear. rods, mains, cam bearings. could be partly an oil pump issue but if it's worn so are your bearings.

High oil pressure means everything is in good condition or you need a thinner oil viscosity. if you have a blockage bad enough to raise your pressure you'll soon find it, when your engine fails.

Sounds like you have two opinions on the condition of your engine. what the second guy told you is encouraging and you should really investigate before you proceed. but don't assume the first guy was wrong just because the second guy told you what you wanted to hear.



that makes sense... parts are worn so the integrity of the parts are not as good leaving more gaps, etc, therefore the original oil pressure would drop. :-bd

Well i don't hear a knock... which from just about everything i have read it should be loud enough to hear it distincly so for now atleast i'm ruling that out. I do however need to figure out why the oil pressure is low, could be an inacurate guage or could be worse... so i think i'm going to start with a better way to monitor it sense my guages are now 30 years old and probably aren't as good as they should be (not that they were that good to begin with).
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REDONE
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Postby REDONE » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:55 am

You really wouldn't do much of anything performance-wise on a tired engine.

Aluminum heads allow you to run higher compression by keeping the combustion chamber cooler, but at $1600 a set, it's like buying lingerie for your grandma if you're not building the engine to take advantage of them.

If you're determined to throw money at your engine, an aluminum intake and throttle body fuel injection will give you a return on investment, but if you really want to wake up your rig, start by regearing your axles.
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letank
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Postby letank » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:21 am

Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:
so.... the timing chain gear should be replaced to improve oil circulation?


NO, it is not the timing chain that is responsible for the oiling of the timing chain, it is the top gear that has groove/channel(s) to let the oil flow at the right volume. SO the day you decide to change the timing chain because of the slack, look carefully at the NEW timing gears vs. the old ones.


Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:also help me understand oil pressure, low oil pressure is better than high oil pressure correct? does high oil pressure mean a possible blockage? i'm just trying to understand the difference.


Low vs. high is a whole topic of Low pressure/High flow vs. High pressure/Low flow. We need the right amount of flow to cool/lubricate the moving parts.

Basically our instruments were not designed to last over 10 years. My first oil pressure trouble was at around 100Kmiles and it was the voltage regulator built into the temperature gauge that gave up. In fact it seems that in my case the voltage regulator fails every 100Kmiles or so. There is a whole section in the shop manual that gives you direction to test the accuracy of the gauges. In your case 40-50ish at highway speed is good, 30ish when slowling down, the gauges can be finicky / inaccurate. Also we do not know what oil was put in the engine, and most important your gauge is not really calibrated or tested - there is a topic somewhere about how to do it-

http://fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8334

and here with link to shop manual called TSM

viewtopic.php?t=9404

Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:I want to keep the vehicle in an original looking state so prefer not to replace gauges with upgraded ones.... however I imagine there is something I can buy that can be discreet like a plug where I can hook something up to get a more accurate reading? I have found "EngineStat" which is expensive but seems like it might be what i'm looking for. anyone else know of another company that does this?


If you calibrate or test your gauge you will realize its shortcomings, you can modify it the voltage regulator in the temperature so you can keep the original gauges or at least be aware of their accuracy...

Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:I will listen to the engine in more depth this weekend to see if I can narrow down the noise.... if its a lifter where will I hear it? if its a rod (which I doubt) where will I hear it and so forth....


lifter is more likely in the valve cover, intake manifold, and for the fun you can try to listen to another vehicle engine for comparison. Rod knock will get louder as you move the hearing screwdriver toward the base of the engine, but as said before the tapping is different, IIRC the lifter will drown at higher rpm while the rod will get louder -other can probably explain it better than I do

Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:I really appreciate you guys helping me out, i'm pretty new to engine fixes... I can do pretty much everything else but engine diagnostics aren't my strong suit.... yet :-bd


You will learn, otherwise your bank account will shrink ...
Michel
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85 Gwag (225 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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440sixpack
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Postby 440sixpack » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:29 am

If you haven't checked your oil pressure with a good mechanical gauge you have no idea what it really is.

A rod knock is either the pin or the bearing, the bearing would lower oil pressure a bit if your pressure is actually low.

A rod has a much different sound than a lifter or a rocker. hard to describe, but a deeper thud not a tinny tap.

Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Postby Rinkle_Stinkle » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:49 am

REDONE wrote:You really wouldn't do much of anything performance-wise on a tired engine.

Aluminum heads allow you to run higher compression by keeping the combustion chamber cooler, but at $1600 a set, it's like buying lingerie for your grandma if you're not building the engine to take advantage of them.

If you're determined to throw money at your engine, an aluminum intake and throttle body fuel injection will give you a return on investment, but if you really want to wake up your rig, start by regearing your axles.



well honestly I think you are right. I thought about it a lot and it didn't make sense to add extras to a tired engine and stress it out. what gear ratio would I look at if I regeared the axles?
1988 Wag
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Postby Rinkle_Stinkle » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:52 am

letank wrote:
Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:
so.... the timing chain gear should be replaced to improve oil circulation?


NO, it is not the timing chain that is responsible for the oiling of the timing chain, it is the top gear that has groove/channel(s) to let the oil flow at the right volume. SO the day you decide to change the timing chain because of the slack, look carefully at the NEW timing gears vs. the old ones.


Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:also help me understand oil pressure, low oil pressure is better than high oil pressure correct? does high oil pressure mean a possible blockage? i'm just trying to understand the difference.


Low vs. high is a whole topic of Low pressure/High flow vs. High pressure/Low flow. We need the right amount of flow to cool/lubricate the moving parts.

Basically our instruments were not designed to last over 10 years. My first oil pressure trouble was at around 100Kmiles and it was the voltage regulator built into the temperature gauge that gave up. In fact it seems that in my case the voltage regulator fails every 100Kmiles or so. There is a whole section in the shop manual that gives you direction to test the accuracy of the gauges. In your case 40-50ish at highway speed is good, 30ish when slowling down, the gauges can be finicky / inaccurate. Also we do not know what oil was put in the engine, and most important your gauge is not really calibrated or tested - there is a topic somewhere about how to do it-

http://fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8334

and here with link to shop manual called TSM

viewtopic.php?t=9404

Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:I want to keep the vehicle in an original looking state so prefer not to replace gauges with upgraded ones.... however I imagine there is something I can buy that can be discreet like a plug where I can hook something up to get a more accurate reading? I have found "EngineStat" which is expensive but seems like it might be what i'm looking for. anyone else know of another company that does this?


If you calibrate or test your gauge you will realize its shortcomings, you can modify it the voltage regulator in the temperature so you can keep the original gauges or at least be aware of their accuracy...

Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:I will listen to the engine in more depth this weekend to see if I can narrow down the noise.... if its a lifter where will I hear it? if its a rod (which I doubt) where will I hear it and so forth....


lifter is more likely in the valve cover, intake manifold, and for the fun you can try to listen to another vehicle engine for comparison. Rod knock will get louder as you move the hearing screwdriver toward the base of the engine, but as said before the tapping is different, IIRC the lifter will drown at higher rpm while the rod will get louder -other can probably explain it better than I do

Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:I really appreciate you guys helping me out, i'm pretty new to engine fixes... I can do pretty much everything else but engine diagnostics aren't my strong suit.... yet :-bd


You will learn, otherwise your bank account will shrink ...


Well I added some lifter and valve cleaner to the oil today to see if the tick goes away. I'll give it a good oil change in about 1K to see if that helps as well. I'll listen a little closer this weekend and do as you stated. I know the tick does drown out at higher RPMs so i'm thinking its not a rod.
1988 Wag
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Postby Rinkle_Stinkle » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:54 am

also: I have purchased the EngineStat.... I will install it asap as that will give me a better understanding of where my engine is running and if anything needs to be fixed.

Honestly its an amazing idea and I can't believe no one else had though about it before that guy did. I hope he gets a patent soon on it because if not they will flood the aftermarket parts market with them... which is good for us but not for him.
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tgreese
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Postby tgreese » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:42 pm

Regarding oil pressure, the engine has a mechanical oil pump that supplies oil to the bearings and other moving parts. Oil pressure indicates the operating condition of the pump and bearings. The crankshaft journals and bearings are separated by a thin layer of oil constantly replenished by the pump. It's the oil that keeps metal from rubbing on metal. There has to be enough oil pressure so that the oil layer is always present. The pump is always working against the oil draining out or being pushed out by the force on the bearings. The higher the engine speed, the more force the cylinders put on the bearings, and the more oil pressure is needed.

In general, higher oil pressure is better, except when it gets too high. Normal oil pressure is about 10 to 30 at idle, and 30 to 60 on the road. When these engines get old and worn, the oil pressure at hot idle goes very low, like 5 psi or lower. A good rule of thumb is you need a minimum of 10 psi of oil pressure for every 1000 RPM. Your idle speed is about 700 RPM, so 5 psi at idle would be less than marginal. Generally the first place that fails catastrophically when oil pressure goes that low is the rod bearings.

You can install an extra oil pressure gauge under the hood, so it won't mess up the interior appearance. Hot rods do this all the time. Just open the hood and look. The factory gauges are fine for reassuring yourself that nothing catastrophic has happened to oil pressure on the highway, but not much more. More likely you would hear a problem of that nature before you would notice the change in the gauge.
Last edited by tgreese on Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
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letank
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Postby letank » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:29 pm

Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:
Well I added some lifter and valve cleaner to the oil today to see if the tick goes away. I'll give it a good oil change in about 1K to see if that helps as well. I'll listen a little closer this weekend and do as you stated. I know the tick does drown out at higher RPMs so i'm thinking its not a rod.


Oil is cheaper than a rebuilt, personnaly I would replace oil and filter, which is the norm when buying a used car, unless you have a receipt or a sticker somewhere on the door jam which date and mileage.

The rule when buying a used vehicle is to change all the fluids, coolant, transmission, transfer case, differentials and the neglected power steering pump.

Give us the tips on the engine sat installation. Very interesting little box, to be kept away from heat, which is sometimes high under our hoods.
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (225 Kmiles... the running test lab)
See Engine bits and Fuel and brake lines, and Body work

Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Postby Rinkle_Stinkle » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:02 am

letank wrote:
Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:
Well I added some lifter and valve cleaner to the oil today to see if the tick goes away. I'll give it a good oil change in about 1K to see if that helps as well. I'll listen a little closer this weekend and do as you stated. I know the tick does drown out at higher RPMs so i'm thinking its not a rod.


Oil is cheaper than a rebuilt, personnaly I would replace oil and filter, which is the norm when buying a used car, unless you have a receipt or a sticker somewhere on the door jam which date and mileage.

The rule when buying a used vehicle is to change all the fluids, coolant, transmission, transfer case, differentials and the neglected power steering pump.

Give us the tips on the engine sat installation. Very interesting little box, to be kept away from heat, which is sometimes high under our hoods.


yeah I've already done an oil change once but will do another in 1K since I put in the cleaner. I'm going to flush the radiator in the next few weeks as well and see how bad that is. it looks like its in good condition from the outside but who knows what kind of debris and rust is at the bottom.

The EngineStat is really cool honestly. super easy installation. I am actually going to replace the oil pressure sending unit and sensor on the next oil change to see if that helps as well (both look original) so 30 years of wear on those may have something to do with it. the installation of the engine stat will take place when I do the oil change as well.

who knows... once I install the EngineStat and replace the sending unit and switch I may find out that she is running right... if not then we may go back to the eventual rebuild idea again.

If it turns out the engine is suffering from low oil pressure should I do a full rebuild or could I get away with not going that in depth?
1988 Wag
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Postby Rinkle_Stinkle » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:07 am

tgreese wrote:Regarding oil pressure, the engine has a mechanical oil pump that supplies oil to the bearings and other moving parts. Oil pressure indicates the operating condition of the pump and bearings. The bearings normally ride on a thin film of oil constantly replenished by the pump. It's the oil that keeps metal from rubbing on metal. There has to be enough oil pressure so that the film is always present. The pump is always working against the oil draining out or being pushed out by the force on the bearings. The higher the engine speed, the more force the cylinders put on the bearings, and the more oil pressure is needed.

In general, higher oil pressure is better, except when it gets too high. Normal oil pressure is about 10 to 30 at idle, and 30 to 60 on the road. When these engines get old and worn, the oil pressure at hot idle goes very low, like 5 psi or lower. A good rule of thumb is you need a minimum of 10 psi of oil pressure for every 1000 RPM. Your idle speed is about 700 RPM, so 5 psi at idle would be less than marginal. Generally the first place that fails catastrophically when oil pressure goes that low is the rod bearings.

You can install an extra oil pressure gauge under the hood, so it won't mess up the interior appearance. Hot rods do this all the time. Just open the hood and look. The factory gauges are fine for reassuring yourself that nothing catastrophic has happened to oil pressure on the highway, but not much more. More likely you would hear a problem of that nature before you would notice the change in the gauge.



awesome information! that makes complete sense now... I love it when I learn something like this! :D

so I was watching my oil pressure gauge yesterday.
at a cold idle I am pushing 30-40
at a hot(warm) idle I'm more around 10-15
at hot engine (warm) going about 40mph I'm pushing 40 again or maybe slightly lower.

once the engine is warm I rarely see the gauge go over 50.

does this sound (look) normal?
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Postby weeegoneeer » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:45 am

Your oil pressure sounds fine. Are those readings from the enginestat sender & readout or off the stock sender / gauge?
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Rinkle_Stinkle
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Postby Rinkle_Stinkle » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:21 am

weeegoneeer wrote:Your oil pressure sounds fine. Are those readings from the enginestat sender & readout or off the stock sender / gauge?


good to hear! :-bd

they are from the stock sender and gauge. I don't have the EngineStat in yet.. hopefully in a month or two.
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letank
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Postby letank » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:46 am

Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:at a cold idle I am pushing 30-40
at a hot(warm) idle I'm more around 10-15
at hot engine (warm) going about 40mph I'm pushing 40 again or maybe slightly lower.

once the engine is warm I rarely see the gauge go over 50.

does this sound (look) normal?


As said above, those are good numbers, because the gauge is showing changes consistent with engine temperature.

How many miles on the odometer?
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (225 Kmiles... the running test lab)
See Engine bits and Fuel and brake lines, and Body work

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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Postby Rinkle_Stinkle » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:40 am

letank wrote:
Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:at a cold idle I am pushing 30-40
at a hot(warm) idle I'm more around 10-15
at hot engine (warm) going about 40mph I'm pushing 40 again or maybe slightly lower.

once the engine is warm I rarely see the gauge go over 50.

does this sound (look) normal?


As said above, those are good numbers, because the gauge is showing changes consistent with engine temperature.

How many miles on the odometer?



166K so she isn't in her youth anymore... I need to figure out what this tick it though... wish I new how to post videos on here haha... i'll be getting to trying to diagnose that this weekend... I almost feel like its louder since the cleaner went in but I could just be overthinking it.
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Postby Rinkle_Stinkle » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:50 pm

also sense I have everyone's attention. I can't seem to get the choke to work in the morning. I had a mechanic adjust the Carb right after purchase as it was smelling rich and they owed me a favor (not the same shop) and while its running better I still don't think the choke is engaging on first start.

Should I try and throw some cleaner in the fuel in hopes it will clear the issue or does this sound like a tired old carb that might need a rebuild?
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Postby tgreese » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:47 pm

Fully warm, the choke plate should be fully open. Take the air cleaner cover off and look at the carburetor while it's running. The choke plates are right on top, and they should be 100% vertical.

The choke needs both hot air and electricity to open fully. There is a section in the TSM about the carburetor, and it has a section about the choke circuit. Read your TSM about the carburetor.

IMO most old cars that have a carburetor and are not (were not) owned by an enthusiast, need a carburetor rebuild.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D

letank
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Postby letank » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:58 pm

Rinkle_Stinkle wrote:also sense I have everyone's attention. I can't seem to get the choke to work in the morning. I had a mechanic adjust the Carb right after purchase as it was smelling rich and they owed me a favor (not the same shop) and while its running better I still don't think the choke is engaging on first start.

Should I try and throw some cleaner in the fuel in hopes it will clear the issue or does this sound like a tired old carb that might need a rebuild?


Make sure that you press the throttle pedal all the way to the floor at least once before cranking the engine, if colder than 45F, twice is a good way to start the engine. When you press the skinny pedal down, it activation the closing of the choke plate and also activate the enrichment circuit that throw some gas down the intake manifold.

166K is a barely used engine.... just kidding before we have no ideal how those miles were spent...

The ticking could be an exhaust leak, very common on our engines... the way to test it is to put a long rubber hose about 1/8 ID against your ear and the other end is walked near the exhaust manifold flange -you can put a metal tip so you do not burn the hose, but especially do not burn your hands/fingers
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (225 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Postby Rinkle_Stinkle » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:46 am

I really hope its an exhaust leak. I would hate to have to tear it down to get to just a bad lifter. I know the exhaust itself has about 15 billion leaks. I started it on a cold morning and under the vehicle looked like a concert fog hog machine spewing every which way.

My goal this weekend is to try and narrow down the tick and I'll look at the carb as well in hopes to diagnose whether I need to rebuild that or not.


if it does end up being a lifter and I have to take the cylinder head off to get to it.... what are the benefits or just buying a new fully built cylinder head as I can find one for around $350....or maybe even upgrading to a performance (yes I know my engine is old so probably not a good idea and its way too much money but just curious in general)

also: I don't mind buying a 6 pack and a pizza for anyone that wants to make the long drive to help HAHA :lol: !
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Re: AMC 360 rebuild ideas

Postby REDONE » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:44 am

You don't need to re move the cylinder head to get at the lifter. The lifters are under the intake manifold. You also have to remove the rocker cover so you can loosen the effected rocker and get the push rod out. On the other hand, the cam and lifters wear in together, so a dead lifter can mean a new cam. :o
79 J-10 (The Money Badger) KE0LSU
304/Performance Fuel Injection TBI/MTA1/SP2P/Magnum rockers
T18/D20/D44s/33" Mud Claws
Grizzly Locker Rear
4" front spring drop, 5" rear shackle flip
Chevy style HEI (ECM controlled)
Dolphin "Shark" gauges in a fancy homemade oak bezel
3/4 resto, rotting faster than I've been fixing it.


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